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Thread: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    The death toll is now 12 (13 including the shooter) with 30 different crime scenes. The witness reports make very upsetting listening. I have nothing to comment on Mr Ockham's ill-considered and inappropriate post. Perhaps you'd allow the dead to be buried before making political capital.
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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Yeah, if only those Columbine kids had been packing....
    If at least the principal, teachers and security guards were armed they could have prevented most of those deaths. Those Columbine losers probably would have not even considered the idea of shooting up a school if they knew that the school personal were armed.

    But I'm sure the people of West Cumbria thank you for your show of sympathy.
    Most of those deaths would have never happened if those people were allowed to arm themselves.

    This is a terrible tragedy and to use
    This terrible tragedy is an example why individuals should be armed.

    it to make cheap political points is a bit sick.
    There is nothing political about it.
    Fortunately no such tasteless remarks have been expressed by anyone on any of the radio or TV reports I've been following, so the grief of the families of the victims will not be exacerbated by anti gun control nuts.

    If your media is anything like the US media they will probably harp on the storie for weeks, maybe read some note left by the piece of **** who murdered those people, make it all about the murderer while ignoring the victims and use this to show why we need to ban guns, although the only difference is your media will make it look like keeping citizens(or are the subject?) unarmed is a good thing. While stories that involve someone using a weapon to save other people gets ignored or only a token mention.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    The death toll is now 12 (13 including the shooter) with 30 different crime scenes. The witness reports make very upsetting listening. I have nothing to comment on Mr Ockham's ill-considered and inappropriate post. Perhaps you'd allow the dead to be buried before making political capital.
    I'm very sorry that this happened. It is indeed tragic, and the fear that it inflicts on everyone in the area is not to be minimized. Last year, we had a serial killer in my home area, who killed a man I knew slightly not more than five miles from my home, and killed a total of five before being killed himself.

    It is a terrible thing.

    In regards to comments by Ockham and James, I think there is something worth considering here: in the past, the anti-gun political lobby has never been shy about using such tragedies to further their own political agenda. Indeed, I believe I am correct that it was a similar mass-killing that lead England to essentially ban handguns entirely. Nor is it at all beyond imagining that the anti-gun political crowd in Britain will use this tragedy in an effort to further restrict law-abiding gun owners and further impair the British citizen's right of self-defense. Viewed from that perspective, their comments are not without merit.

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    The death toll is now 12 (13 including the shooter) with 30 different crime scenes. The witness reports make very upsetting listening. I have nothing to comment on Mr Ockham's ill-considered and inappropriate post. Perhaps you'd allow the dead to be buried before making political capital.
    No it's best to strike while the emotional iron is hot. Dead is dead - they won't be any less or more so after they're buried. I know it sounds callous and unfeeling but the fact is people are literally sent to the slaughter by madmen like Bird. I'm asking what you'd suggest doing about it? Continue the current path and send innocents into the ground if they're unfortunate enough to run across another person like Bird in the future - or - give people a fighting chance to defend themselves without worrying about being jailed for it. Seems like a simple choice to me but perhaps it's not so easy for Brits.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I'm very sorry that this happened. It is indeed tragic, and the fear that it inflicts on everyone in the area is not to be minimized. Last year, we had a serial killer in my home area, who killed a man I knew slightly not more than five miles from my home, and killed a total of five before being killed himself.

    It is a terrible thing.

    In regards to comments by Ockham and James, I think there is something worth considering here: in the past, the anti-gun political lobby has never been shy about using such tragedies to further their own political agenda. Indeed, I believe I am correct that it was a similar mass-killing that lead England to essentially ban handguns entirely. Nor is it at all beyond imagining that the anti-gun political crowd in Britain will use this tragedy in an effort to further restrict law-abiding gun owners and further impair the British citizen's right of self-defense. Viewed from that perspective, their comments are not without merit.
    I'm afraid I think that this issue might have a certain Clash of Civilisations aspect. In the UK and here in Spain, I wouldn't presume to speak with any confidence about other European countries, gun ownership has no philosophical, political or cultural weight. Owning a gun is something you do if you need to for hunting, pest control or sporting reasons. Gun ownership appears in neither the Spanish constitution nor any of the canon of laws and precedent that makes up the informal British constitution. Added to this, in Britain at least, the idea that gun ownership for personal safety purposes is a quite alien concept, the (unarmed) police are there to protect the citizen and someone who might claim the need to own a gun for personal protection has always been seen as an oddity, a bit weird in fact. And this has always been the case for at least 200 years. I realise that this culture is utterly different from the attitude to gun ownership in the US.

    Beause of this culture of scepticism towards gun ownership spree killings seem to be a very rare and therefore very shocking event. The last spree killing in the UK was in 1996 in Dunblane. I certainly haven't been aware of any spree killings having taken place in Spain since I moved here in 2005. I think the incidence in the US is much greater. I'm not claiming any correlation between high levels of gun ownership and high levels of spree killing incidents as I don't have evidence to support such a claim. What I would claim is that the general public attitude towards such a tragic event is usually to support greater control of gun ownership.

    When I use the expression "Clash of Civilisations" I mean that attitudes on either side of the Atlantic seem to be diametrically opposed. The same issue, the same set of circumstances seem to elicit entirely different reactions. I'm not going to be so arrogant as to claim moral superiority for our attitude, but I hope US posters won't do the same and might give some thought to the idea that one size of solution might not fit all.
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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    I concur with what Andalublue has said. We do not want guns and we do not want our police armed while performing their normal duties either.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I concur with what Andalublue has said. We do not want guns and we do not want our police armed while performing their normal duties either.
    Then this will happen again... those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Then this will happen again... those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
    As Andalublue has accurately said this is a very uncommon occurance in this country, and, to be perfectly frank, I do not think I have noticed that having guns has been of much help to people caught in a similar situation to this in the US.

    The overwhelming consensus in this country is that we do not want guns, not for ourselves or for our police. I think Andalublue's putting it as a 'clash of civilisations' over this is a very good one. Understand we do not want guns. No one is asking for guns. If there were anyway of having even less guns that is what they would be asking for, but again, in a situation like this, I have not noticed that having guns helps the US one bit and the US has a lot more incidents like this than we do.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    As Andalublue has accurately said this is a very uncommon occurance in this country, and, to be perfectly frank, I do not think I have noticed that having guns has been of much help to people caught in a similar situation to this in the US.
    You'd have to look no further than the Hassan shooting. Cop took out Hassan as he opened up on fellow servicemen. Frankly- there are every day cases where break-ins, attempted rapes, thefts, etc. are either stopped or the perpetrators are shot. Even without a gun, defense of one's self, ]property and family is a key right. There's even a story in this thread which outlines how a gun saved someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    The overwhelming consensus in this country is that we do not want guns, not for ourselves or for our police. I think Andalublue's putting it as a 'clash of civilisations' over this is a very good one. Understand we do not want guns. No one is asking for guns. If there were anyway of having even less guns that is what they would be asking for, but again, in a situation like this, I have not noticed that having guns helps the US one bit and the US has a lot more incidents like this than we do.
    And that's perfectly fine - so I'll say it once more: Then this occurrence will happen again, and again. And it'll be just a sorrowful tragedy each and every time.
    “I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on what’s being proposed here, he’d agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute.” - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    You'd have to look no further than the Hassan shooting. Cop took out Hassan as he opened up on fellow servicemen. Frankly- there are every day cases where break-ins, attempted rapes, thefts, etc. are either stopped or the perpetrators are shot. Even without a gun, defense of one's self, ]property and family is a key right. There's even a story in this thread which outlines how a gun saved someone.
    Well that maybe so on some occasions, though personally I would prefer our police to deal with crime. They of course can get guns in special circumstances. We also do not have a death penalty so citizens killing their burglars and so on just would not sit so well here.

    However your homicides far exceed ours. (the figures are for 2004)

    England had 1.6 per 100,000 pop
    Scotland had 2.6 per 100,000 pop
    USA had 5.9 per 100,000 pop

    Global homicide: murder rates around the world | News | guardian.co.uk

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post

    And that's perfectly fine - so I'll say it once more: Then this occurrence will happen again, and again. And it'll be just a sorrowful tragedy each and every time.
    We may well. I think our last was about 14 years ago. Guns would not help us with this if the United States is anything to go by.

    April 4, 2009, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania: 23 year-old Richard Poplawsk opened fire on officers during a domestic disturbance call Saturday morning, killing three of them, a police official said.

    April 4, 2009: Binghamton, N.Y: Jiverly Voong aka Jiverly Wong?13 people in a shooting rampage inside a New York State immigration services centre

    March 29, 2009: Robert Stewart, 45, shot and killed eight people at Pinelake Health and Rehab in Carthage, North Carolina, before a police officer shot him and ended the rampage.

    March 29, 2009: Indian techie Devan Kalathat, 42, shot and killed his two children and three other relatives, then killed himself in an upscale neighbourhood of Santa Clara, California. Kalathat’s wife was critically injured.

    March 21, 2009: Lovelle Mixon, 26, shot and killed four Oakland, California, police officers after a traffic stop. Mixon was killed in a shootout with SWAT officers.

    March 10, 2009: Michael McLendon, 28, killed 10 people – including his mother, four other relatives, and the wife and child of a local sheriff’s deputy – across two rural Alabama counties. He then killed himself.
    US mass shootings since March 10,2009 less than 1 month

    and although our last to this mass killing was inside a school we have never had school children going in and gunning down their classmates.

    It is sad what happened today for the people who died and their families. Let's not turn this into a pro gun rally thread.
    Last edited by alexa; 06-02-10 at 08:14 PM.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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