Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst ... 8910
Results 91 to 99 of 99

Thread: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

  1. #91
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,449

    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Lets be clear about something, and no offense to my brother Goshin.


    There is no such thing as a one time 2 week or 2 month whatever, effective self defense "course"....
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  2. #92
    Guru

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    10-29-17 @ 02:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,684

    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    If you remember the case of Omari Roberts in Nottingham who came home and found two robbers in his house one of whom was armed with a kitchen knife - Roberts managed to defend himself and in the process ended up stabbing one of the attackers with a kitchen knife. The second guy came back to cause more aggor and in the 2nd fight Roberts stabbed him too and ended up in an 12 month court case to clear his name.

    He was only cleared when the surviving burglar finally confessed he'd lied and claimed that Roberts had attacked them without provocation.
    I have a dim memory but it wasn't something I followed closely. Unfortunately our justice system makes mistakes - one of the reasons we don't have the death penalty. I do not for instance support shooting burglars in the back as they are fleeing which has also happened. By law you do have the right to use whatever force is necessary to protect yourself. Having not followed the case you mention I can't comment much on it. In that situation I would have thought any benefit of the doubt would have been given to the householder so I am imagining circumstantial evidence or something made him appear guilty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post

    A dose of pepper spray (if we're not allowed guns to protect our own homes) might have meant the robbers were dealt with without deaths. Even so - you're allowed to defend yourself in your own home (but be prepared to spend months clearing your name if the robber lies to the police) but you cannot use something like pepper spray to defend yourself with!
    I don't think I have made up my mind about pepper spray. I do not remember hearing anything about it being illegal when it came out so imagine there must be some reason why this has happened.

    My own house is secure to the level that allows me to sleep at night. I feel no need to sleep with pepper spray at hand. However I appreciate that there may be people who do fear for break ins at night. I would think it would be best to approach that by both adequate policing and sorting out any underlying social problems which give rise to the problem.

    Of course I could get broken into these things happen. It is just unlikely enough for me not to feel the need to lie in expectation.

    If people believe they need pepper spray in their homes in order to be safe then it is up to them try and get the law changed on this.
    Last edited by alexa; 06-07-10 at 09:17 AM.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  3. #93
    Guru

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    10-29-17 @ 02:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,684

    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    As best I can tell from a secondhand account, it sounds like the course was ok. One thing I tell my SCSD students is that they need ongoing practice if they expect to be able to use what I teach them in a sudden, emotionally traumatic attack. Something you did once twenty years ago may not stick with you well enough in such a situation, really.
    Well it was 30 years ago and as I said before I have arthritis which would likely make me not very useful at the moment.

    We too were told to continue practising. This I did by teaching friends and later my daughter. However for me the need to learn the self defence was related to the reality that I was living in a dangerous neighbourhood. When three or four years later I moved into an incredibly safe one, the need was not felt.

    For me the benefit was that I no longer felt scared. However even thirty years later I would say one or two of the things are still pretty instintive to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post

    I've noted that a lot of people are very squeamish about "poking someone in the eye". I go further than that; I teach how to remove the eyeball entirely. Invariably someone shudders and says "I could never do that". My reply is that if the chap intends to rape you with a broken bottle then strangle you with your own stockings and leave your naked and bleeding corpse on the street, you might think otherwise.
    It makes me feel sick just to read. I am afraid with that one I thought no. Emotionally I could not look at it and it did go further than a poke as well. There were plenty of alternatives. I can remember thinking 'well I will just remember that one at the back of my mind if all else fails and my life depends on it'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post

    Close-quarters unarmed combat, in a life-or-death situation, isn't pretty and it isn't at all civilized. I've done it and it is just as ugly as any gunshot wound.
    Indeed, for the most I learnt how to repel someone and how to disable them from getting up for sufficient time for me to make a getaway. That was all I wanted. Like I said the main benefit of the course was that it made me feel safe and so was empowering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post

    I have my doubts about that. In the USA, accidental gunshot deaths are relatively small and have been in decline for half a century. Self-defense uses, even by the most conservative of estimates, outnumber accidental deaths by at least 50 to 1. But, as I say... it is your country, do what you will. Not my call.
    By your own statistics your homicide rates are well up on England and Wales and they are still over double that of Scotland. If something works why change it. I see no benefit to be gained.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post

    Good Lord, though, you'd think they'd at least let you have pepperspray, of all things.



    In America, we don't believe in banning a product because some small minority might misuse it. Automobiles are an excellent example: some people drive drunk. We don't ban cars, we just prosecute drunk drivers.
    In the UK if the public feel strongly enough about something, wanting pepper spray for instance, it is up to them to start putting on pressure for that to happen. It's that thing again called democracy.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  4. #94
    Sage
    Infinite Chaos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    11-19-17 @ 06:45 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    14,858

    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I have a dim memory but it wasn't something I followed closely. Unfortunately our justice system makes mistakes - one of the reasons we don't have the death penalty.
    I don't support the death penalty - however that's another subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I do not for instance support shooting burglars in the back as they are fleeing which has also happened. By law you do have the right to use whatever force is necessary to protect yourself.
    It would be difficult to be 100% accurate that any burglar shot in the back was fleeing, (for example) what if the burglar (for instance) was raping another household member and the shooter came into the room from behind?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    so I am imagining circumstantial evidence or something made him appear guilty.
    The story is there and links to other reports. The circumstancial evidence was that it was a kitchen knife from his own home and two burglars were stabbed with it - one died. The case against Roberts was simply that the surviving burglar lied to police and said Roberts made an unprovoked attack. The police didn't believe Roberts defence and he ended up in court, it was only under cross examination that the surviving burglar confessed - but this was a year later. Roberts had been under suspicion all that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    -- Of course I could get broken into these things happen. It is just unlikely enough for me not to feel the need to lie in expectation.

    If people believe they need pepper spray in their homes in order to be safe then it is up to them try and get the law changed on this.
    I don't think many do (lie in bed waiting to be raped / burgled / robbed) etc and that's not the angle most people keen on self defense rights such as concealed carry argue from - if someone is thinking about attacking another - the doubt or thought placed in the attacker's mind that the "defenceless victim" may nbot actually be so defenceless is what the arguement is about.

    I may be wrong - however I do believe that those states in the US that allow concealed carry have a lower crime rate than those that don't. Those Americans allowed to carry a concealed weapon aren't sitting thinking they could be attacked at any moment - they're busy getting on with their lives.

  5. #95
    Guru

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    10-29-17 @ 02:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,684

    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post



    It would be difficult to be 100% accurate that any burglar shot in the back was fleeing, (for example) what if the burglar (for instance) was raping another household member and the shooter came into the room from behind?
    Oh come on Infinite, this was an actual case. The young burglar was outside running away. I even put in 'as they are fleeing away'


    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    The story is there and links to other reports. The circumstancial evidence was that it was a kitchen knife from his own home and two burglars were stabbed with it - one died. The case against Roberts was simply that the surviving burglar lied to police and said Roberts made an unprovoked attack. The police didn't believe Roberts defence and he ended up in court, it was only under cross examination that the surviving burglar confessed - but this was a year later. Roberts had been under suspicion all that time.
    Like I said our justice system makes mistakes - sometimes the police have even been known to tamper with evidence, refuse people sleep until they get a confession and so on. It does sound a very strange one. I would give the benefit of the doubt to someone who has just been subject to attack. Luckily all came out in court. I appreciate he had this hanging over him for a year. Like I said our justice system is not perfect. Some people even die in jail before their name is cleared.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post

    I don't think many do (lie in bed waiting to be raped / burgled / robbed) etc and that's not the angle most people keen on self defense rights such as concealed carry argue from - if someone is thinking about attacking another - the doubt or thought placed in the attacker's mind that the "defenceless victim" may nbot actually be so defenceless is what the arguement is about.

    I may be wrong - however I do believe that those states in the US that allow concealed carry have a lower crime rate than those that don't. Those Americans allowed to carry a concealed weapon aren't sitting thinking they could be attacked at any moment - they're busy getting on with their lives.

    You would also have to assume that burglars themselves would start taking firearms more often for fear they were met with one and let them off as soon as they saw anyone. All I can suggest is you try to set up a gun lobby. If it ever looked like it might get successful I would oppose. Until that time I am not that bothered. I just believe that nothing is certain in life. I do think that there are people who do live in some degree of fear in their homes. I would like more help done for that.
    Last edited by alexa; 06-07-10 at 12:09 PM.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  6. #96
    Sage
    Infinite Chaos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    11-19-17 @ 06:45 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    14,858

    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Oh come on Infinite, this was an actual case. The young burglar was outside running away. I even put in 'as they are fleeing away'
    Sorry Alexa, I wasn't familiar with the case you were referring to. Do you mean that farmer in Norwich who eventually joined the BNP?

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    -- You would also have to assume that burglars themselves would start taking firearms more often for fear they were met with one and let them off as soon as they saw anyone --
    Personally I disagree that argument as burglars can already get illegal firearms now. You have to remember that the law now allows a homeowner to protect themselves if attacked - and as you've said, including up to killing your assailant - so if a burglar wants to be protected now they can and probably do go into some places armed.

    On the other hand, homeowners can not protect themselves unless they are ready to fight and as Goshin showed - that's not always something that will work.

  7. #97
    Guru

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    10-29-17 @ 02:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,684

    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Sorry Alexa, I wasn't familiar with the case you were referring to. Do you mean that farmer in Norwich who eventually joined the BNP?
    Sounds like him though I didn't know he had joined the BNP

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post

    Personally I disagree that argument as burglars can already get illegal firearms now. You have to remember that the law now allows a homeowner to protect themselves if attacked - and as you've said, including up to killing your assailant - so if a burglar wants to be protected now they can and probably do go into some places armed.
    I don't think most burglars of ordinary houses are armed with guns. I also believe their is a much higher sentence if they go in with a gun. Most burglars I think try to avoid going into houses that are inhabited. Having said that if I was a burglar and I thought there was any chance that the person in the house would have a gun and shoot me, I would go armed just like kids now are getting knives, guns and whatever it is the rival gang gets.

    i suspect this is a never ending argument depending on whether you want guns or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post

    On the other hand, homeowners can not protect themselves unless they are ready to fight and as Goshin showed - that's not always something that will work.
    How often are ordinary run of the mill people found in the position where they need to protect their lives from burglars? I don't think it can be very often. I have been alive a long time and lived in many different locations but only once have I suffered a burglary and that happened when I was out and when everyone else around was being burgled as well. It certainly was an unpleasant experience but no one as injured.

    Neighbourhood watch schemes can help. Sorting out social problems can help. I just don't see any need for us all to have guns.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  8. #98
    Sage
    Infinite Chaos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    11-19-17 @ 06:45 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    14,858

    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Sounds like him though I didn't know he had joined the BNP
    I haven't looked to closely but after he took payment from the mirror, he was involved with them in some way. Anyhow - I didn't mean to digress.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    -- Neighbourhood watch schemes can help. Sorting out social problems can help. I just don't see any need for us all to have guns.
    Funnily enough, neither do I. I do however think those who want them legally should be able to have them. Same with things like pepper spray for thoe who don't want a gun.

  9. #99
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:16 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,157

    Re: Gunman kills several in west Cumbria

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Lets be clear about something, and no offense to my brother Goshin.


    There is no such thing as a one time 2 week or 2 month whatever, effective self defense "course"....


    In general, I agree. However, you have people who simply are NOT going to spend 4+ hours a week for 3-5 years getting trained up, then put in the necessary refresher time keeping their edge sharp. Some of these folks can benefit from a short course, if it is intensely focused on the practical. Chiefly, I spend about half of the class time talking and demonstrating various scenarios, with the focus on security, awareness and avoidance, and I consider that to be the most important part of the class.

    The physical aspect I keep very simple and straightforward. One generic "default/flinch" defense, three or four effective strikes, a few basic hold escapes. That's it. Then I emphasize the need for ongoing practice if they expect to be able to use any of it. Mainly I comfort myself that the security/awareness/avoidance stuff will stick with them and enable them to avoid 80-90% of the trouble they might otherwise have wandered blithely into.

    I did have one young gal. about 24 hours after taking my class, this guy was bothering her and she totally kicked his ass. Another friend of mine eyewitnessed it, said it was awesome, lol.

    That was gratifying.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

Page 10 of 10 FirstFirst ... 8910

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •