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Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

Caine said:
Of course it is. When you are WAYY over-paying for something because you know that proceeds (which there shall be plenty due to the much higher than reasonable price) will go to Charity.
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So why not just give the overcost to a charity directly, where more of it will actually be used by the charity?
 
The_Patriot said:
It's a matter of facts. The United States, a supposedly free country, has more prisoners incarcerated then China. The US ranks number one while China is a distant second. If one truly lived in a free society then there wouldn't be as many prisoners as there are now.



Burning the flag is a sign of disrespect to the government that authorized its creation. The first Stars and Stripes was authorized by the Continental Congress then re-authorized under the Congress of the Confederation then under the United States Congress under the Constitution. In all three cases, it took the government three separate laws to authorize the creation of the flag. The flag is a symbol of the government and not the people. Just like the great seals used by the various branches are representative of those parts of the government and not the people.
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We have also established that Paper U.S. Currency is a creation of the government and not the people.

Why aren't you burning that instead?
 
Caine said:
We have also established that Paper U.S. Currency is a creation of the government and not the people.

Why aren't you burning that instead?
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How cute and adoreable you are.
 
Redress said:
So why not just give the overcost to a charity directly, where more of it will actually be used by the charity?
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Because the item you are receiving is "special".

I like it, you don't. This is America Jack (or Jill)

The difference is, the few times Ive given to Charity directly I have still purchased something.

I have purchased the right to be harrassed by them about more donations via email, phone, and snailmail until I finally end up having to be rude to the same people I've donated money to.
 
Caine said:
Because the item you are receiving is "special".

I like it, you don't. This is America Jack (or Jill)

The difference is, the few times Ive given to Charity directly I have still purchased something.

I have purchased the right to be harrassed by them about more donations via email, phone, and snailmail until I finally end up having to be rude to the same people I've donated money to.
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I will give you that last. Did they have the Combined Federal Campaign thing(I think it was called that) when you where in the service, where you had to fill out the form even if you did not want to donate to any of the charities, and commands always wanted 100 % participation, so you donated to not get harassed?
 
Caine said:
Because the item you are receiving is "special".

I like it, you don't. This is America Jack (or Jill)

The difference is, the few times Ive given to Charity directly I have still purchased something.

I have purchased the right to be harrassed by them about more donations via email, phone, and snailmail until I finally end up having to be rude to the same people I've donated money to.
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I agree. Getting off the mailing list can be annoying.
 
Redress said:
I will give you that last. Did they have the Combined Federal Campaign thing(I think it was called that) when you where in the service, where you had to fill out the form even if you did not want to donate to any of the charities, and commands always wanted 100 % participation, so you donated to not get harassed?
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Yes I did.

And now I have this annoying United Way and Arts and Science Council crap all city employees have to fill out. We ALL HAVE to fill out the form, even if its zero dollars.

And believe me, I fill out the zero dollars.

The way I look at it, the United Way doesn't need the small amount of excess income I make to survive.
And,
If the Arts were so great, they'd pay for themselves.
 
Caine said:
Yes I did.

And now I have this annoying United Way and Arts and Science Council crap all city employees have to fill out. We ALL HAVE to fill out the form, even if its zero dollars.

And believe me, I fill out the zero dollars.

The way I look at it, the United Way doesn't need the small amount of excess income I make to survive.
And,
If the Arts were so great, they'd pay for themselves.
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I always donated to really off the wall stuff for CFC, just to piss the command off. I wonder if those lesbian nuns I donated to appreciated it...
 
Caine said:
Are you going to reply to my question or are you just going to give an "incoherant" reply?
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When they makes flags legal tender then I'm pretty sure that people will stop burning them. I guess you want people to starve from burning the currency that the government has given them to pay for the debts.
 
Redress said:
I always donated to really off the wall stuff for CFC, just to piss the command off. I wonder if those lesbian nuns I donated to appreciated it...
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LOL, I remember once donating to "Dogs for the Deaf"

I think I got newsletters for them for the rest of my 2 years remaining in the Military.
 
The_Patriot said:
When they makes flags legal tender then I'm pretty sure that people will stop burning them. I guess you want people to starve from burning the currency that the government has given them to pay for the debts.
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Its a clear sign of protesting the government, since the government made the money, the money is thus no longer a symbol of wealth but a symbol of the government, right?
 
Caine said:
Its a clear sign of protesting the government, since the government made the money, the money is thus no longer a symbol of wealth but a symbol of the government, right?
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It would be true, but only if the government allowed for private currency and to open up the FRN to competition. The last time someone did that everything related to the business was seized and the owners are awaiting trial. I take it that you really want the people to starve and to be homeless since they do not have an alternative to government mandated currency.
 
The_Patriot said:
It would be true, but only if the government allowed for private currency and to open up the FRN to competition. The last time someone did that everything related to the business was seized and the owners are awaiting trial. I take it that you really want the people to starve and to be homeless since they do not have an alternative to government mandated currency.
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If they are so ****ing juvenile as to feel the need to burn a "symbol of the government" in order to get some sort of message of dissent across, then yes I would give a **** less if they starve and become homeless.

They do have an alternative to burning "symbols of the government"....

Find a more adult way of getting the message across, You know, maybe one that actually explicitly states the reason why they are pissed at the government.
 
Caine said:
Find a more adult way of getting the message across, You know, maybe one that actually explicitly states the reason why they are pissed at the government.
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I completely agree and for the same reason I do not put any value into a flag. It is a matter of symbolic action vs concrete action. If you are pissed about something the government did or is, than do something.
 
I will never understand why lefties love to burn our flag or to burn American soldiers in effigy...One has to wonder is their hate for this country and our brave military that they have to do this?
 
Caine said:
If they are so ****ing juvenile as to feel the need to burn a "symbol of the government" in order to get some sort of message of dissent across, then yes I would give a **** less if they starve and become homeless.

They do have an alternative to burning "symbols of the government"....

Find a more adult way of getting the message across, You know, maybe one that actually explicitly states the reason why they are pissed at the government.
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So you're saying that the founding fathers shouldn't have burned the Union Jack and the King's men in effigy way before they decided to defend themselves at Lexington-Concord? The entire point behind burning flags and effigys is to prevent bloodshed. I guess you would rather having the streets become rivers of blood.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Some of these were flags on poles attached to houses.....


just how lightly should we treat arson and attempted murder?
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Seriously? Apparently no houses were burned at all and no lives were endangered. Some people burned a couple dozen flags. That couldn't have amounted to even $1000 of property damage. It is a misdemeanor at best.

texmaster said:
Its sad you ignore the history of the flag, why it was created, what battles it was flown over to distinguish ourselves from other nations and the tradition of respect its held.

But you just ignore all of that so you won't ever understand. And doing "concrete" work is good but it doesn't fill the hole in your understanding of the flag or your disrepect for its meaning no matter how many hours you put in.
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I understand it on an emotional and an intellectual level. Why do self-described patriots always claim people who do not share their blind devotion to empty symbols do not understand? Maybe, it is more comforting to assert they don't understand lest you have to concede they have a legitimate argument challenging your beliefs.

Redress said:
He is a soldier, so by default he is a patriot and hero.
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I hope you are being ironic. It is hard to imagine how someone can recognize the ridiculous veneration of the flag yet embrace the warrior cult.
 
Demon of Light said:
I understand it on an emotional and an intellectual level. Why do self-described patriots always claim people who do not share their blind devotion to empty symbols do not understand? Maybe, it is more comforting to assert they don't understand lest you have to concede they have a legitimate argument challenging your beliefs.
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Making this kind of incredible ignorant claim about the flag being an empty symbol proves you will never understand.
 
Redress said:
Which have demonstrated just as much knowledge of the flag and it's history as yours(hint: niether of us has shown any real knowledge from just the posts in this thread).
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This isn't a contest of who has more historical knowledge of the flag. This is about respect for the flag and what it represents.

You can of course show where I said it had no meaning. Feel free, I am waiting.
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Not a problem:

I would argue that those who attach such value to a piece of cloth do not understand patriotism.
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You just admitted you don't believe having value for the flag other than the material it is made up shows a lack of understanding of what patriotism is.

To devalue the flag as you have done here by belitting its value beyond the material its made of only proves once again you will never understand why it is so wrong to burn it as a form of protest.
 
texmaster said:
Making this kind of incredible ignorant claim about the flag being an empty symbol proves you will never understand.
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It's not an empty symbol, but what the flag stands for can mean different things to different people. What it means to the people can change depending on the popular ideology of the day. Thats why I don't put any real value in it. Yeah it's a nice decoration, but it really doesn't concretely stand for anything. Thats why I believe the most important symbol for America is the Constitution. It has real meaning, it has value. It is what America was built on, and it is what we stand for. It's values are at the very core of who we are as Americans. I would be more offended if someone was burning replicas of the Constitution than burning the flag. Though I would not stop them in doing so, because of what the Constitution stands for.
 
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texmaster said:
This isn't a contest of who has more historical knowledge of the flag. This is about respect for the flag and what it represents.



Not a problem:



You just admitted you don't believe having value for the flag other than the material it is made up shows a lack of understanding of what patriotism is.

To devalue the flag as you have done here by belitting its value beyond the material its made of only proves once again you will never understand why it is so wrong to burn it as a form of protest.
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What is not what you claimed. You claimed I said burning the flag had no meaning, which I did not say. People attach what meaning to it they choose to. I choose to attach meaning to real things, not abstract symbols.
 
texmaster said:
Making this kind of incredible ignorant claim about the flag being an empty symbol proves you will never understand.
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It is an empty symbol. No matter how much meaning you try to pour into it, at the end of the day it is just a piece of fabric and of no real value. I can understand your attachment to such an empty symbol, that does not mean I have to consider it as having value.
 
Caine said:
If the Arts were so great, they'd pay for themselves.
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Not really. The "art" that pays for it's self is the lowest common denominator - think Hummels and Jersey Shore.

All art devolves into entertainment without patronage and government support.

Further, government investments in the arts return nearly 7-fold in tax dollars.

Economic Impact

The organization I work for receives about $60,000 annually in government dollars (federal, state, local). The economic impact is measured at $1.4 million; or the equivalent of 35 jobs created (based on our local average revenue). That's an income tax return of about $340,000.

That would be a 176% return on investment.

You take the money away from us; we have to cut jobs; shrink the event; and lessen the impact in the surrounding community - meaning fewer jobs created and less revenue.

You can attack government spending all you like - but government investment in the arts pays for it's self and is a revenue positive expenditure in the long run.

Now - those of you who are so against flag burning; are you also in favor of strong penalties for hate crimes? From what I've read, clearly, these individuals should be punished for vandalism, but nothing more.
 
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