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Thread: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

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    Re: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

    I have no problems with flag burnings, it's just a flag. But these were other peoples flags, and they should be prosecuted for vandalism.

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    Re: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    I have no problems with flag burnings, it's just a flag. But these were other peoples flags, and they should be prosecuted for vandalism.
    I think we just agreed 100% on something
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    Re: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnMacCool View Post
    I don't understand the POV of people that say "IF you don't love your country, you should leave it" You can love your country and still hate the government.
    I don't understand people who claim to love their country but hate its government, especially in a country like the USA where the people choose their government. I may turn my nose up like a snob and say that the masses are getting the government they deserve-- but at the end of the day, it's a government of the people, by the people, and for the people and I love those people. I can maybe see some corner cases where dictators have perverted the country's culture, but even then in most cases dictators are dictators because they enjoy widespread support.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnMacCool View Post
    I also don't agree with the idea that I should have to leave if I don't love my country. Where will I go? Who will pay for me to leave?
    Why should anyone else have to pay for you to leave? You're the one who hates their government-- and on some level, I believe that means you hate them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    And where would that leave anarchists?
    Hopefully on the receiving end of an epiphany about how much they need society and how to fulfill their proper place in that society.

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    Re: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Because you don't get to destroy someone else's property so you can tell all your bros about how badass you are.
    Nobody was suggesting that destroying the property of others was somehow justified. We're just saying that a flag isn't an object that is inherently worse to damage than any other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I don't understand people who claim to love their country but hate its government, especially in a country like the USA where the people choose their government. I may turn my nose up like a snob and say that the masses are getting the government they deserve-- but at the end of the day, it's a government of the people, by the people, and for the people and I love those people. I can maybe see some corner cases where dictators have perverted the country's culture, but even then in most cases dictators are dictators because they enjoy widespread support.

    Why should anyone else have to pay for you to leave? You're the one who hates their government-- and on some level, I believe that means you hate them.


    Hopefully on the receiving end of an epiphany about how much they need society and how to fulfill their proper place in that society.
    The shortest way to answer all of this is that the world is not black in white. Just because you "hate" something that your government is doing doesn't mean that you think your government is literally as bad as Hitler's Germany.
    Last edited by Deuce; 06-01-10 at 08:45 PM.
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    Re: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I think we just agreed 100% on something
    No way!

    Anyway, to anyone who things burning a flag is inherently worse than destroying anything else, I have to say watch this video. It's quite awesome.


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    Re: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

    While this was an act of vandalism and as such unacceptable these people should be treated rather lightly. Ultimately their actions amounted to a very small amount of property damage and demanding a harsher punishment for them goes against the very principles for which people are supposedly raising the flag.

    Too many people take a position on such actions that demonstrates the very reason for such actions. Patriotism is a softer term for nationalism and the excesses of nationalism lead to fascism.
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    Re: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Nobody was suggesting that destroying the property of others was somehow justified. We're just saying that a flag isn't an object that is inherently worse to damage than any other.
    Legally, sure, but I'd say it's morally worse, much like a hate crime is morally worse than a regular crime.

    Destroying something that you know has special significance to a person is worse than destroying mere property, whether it's a flag, a child's drawing on a refrigerator, or a religious icon.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

    In Canada I haven't come across the attitude that if you don't love your country you shouldn't be here. I was born here, I am Canadian. I didn't choose to be born here, and I can choose to leave if I want, but you don't set the conditions for my residence. There is no law that says you must love your country to stay here. And yet, I look to our neighbors to the south and there is so much fervor about loving one's country. It's practically a sin to say that you hate the state of affairs in your country. I don't love or hate my country, I am just here, and that's all.

    That said, because of how Canada's federal politicians are behaving right now, I am not proud to be Canadian. I am ashamed of being Canadian. I see the direction that this country is headed and I am not happy. I did not vote for the government in power. I did not "choose" them, and I voted. So I have a right to complain. Even if I didn't vote, I can complain. I can say I hate my government. That kind of speech is what it means to be Canadian.

    If you think that I should love my country in order to stay there, then I say to you, get the hell out. I have a right to think and feel whatever the hell I want, thanks.

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    Re: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    I don't understand people who claim to love their country but hate its government, especially in a country like the USA where the people choose their government. I may turn my nose up like a snob and say that the masses are getting the government they deserve-- but at the end of the day, it's a government of the people, by the people, and for the people and I love those people. I can maybe see some corner cases where dictators have perverted the country's culture, but even then in most cases dictators are dictators because they enjoy widespread support.
    That is a fallacy since felons and other classes of people are prohibited by law from voting. Thus, they cannot choose their government. To answer your reply to me, when was the last time the government actually followed the Constitution of the United States? I can tell you that the last time was after Madison's term as president. After that, every branch of the government violated the Constitution from then until now. By the government violating the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, it no longer is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people. It has become a tyranny as per the definition used by the first group of founding fathers.

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    Re: Flag Vandalism Mars Memorial Day in Several States

    All I can say is that I have already, in this thread, explained the difference between loving your country and being blindly uncritical of its actions. You can think certain officials are behaving badly and still love your country. You can think your country is on the wrong track and still love your country. You can even be ashamed of your country and still love it, as long as your love drives an urge to see your country improve.

    Anyone who knows me knows how quick I am to criticize anything I see as wrong, and how harshly that criticism can be phrased. My government is not exempt from my attentions, and it has never been so. That does not change the fact, in the slightest, that I love my country, its government, and the people.

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