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Thread: Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

  1. #31
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    Re: Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    At what point did the world get to vote on how a country handles its internal affairs?
    We can assume that the elected governments of democratic countries reflect the opinion of their population

    If the EU doesn't like what Israel is doing, then it should do something about it
    Like a boycott?

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    Re: Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The legality of what Israel did is questionable at best to anyone looking at this without bias in their mind...
    Under international law, not only is the visiting/inspecting of ships in international waters not generally prohibited, but also there are precedents for it. The U.S. engages in such practices when it deals with ships suspected of carrying narcotics. For example, on the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's website one finds:

    U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement special agents, working jointly with Caribbean Border Initiative (CCI) law enforcement officers, seized here today 1,930 kilograms of cocaine with a street value of approximately $58 million on board the Panamanian-flagged vessel M/V Megan Star...

    As a result of the joint investigative efforts by CCI participants, a U.S. Coast Guard law enforcement detachment on board the USS Farragut Navy vessel intercepted the M/V Megan Star in international waters.

    After successful coordination between officers of the USCG law enforcement detachment, Caribbean Corridor participating agencies, and the government of Panama, USCG personnel boarded the M/V Megan Star. The vessel was subsequently escorted to the Coast Guard base in San Juan for a more thorough inspection which revealed approximately 1,930 kilograms of cocaine hidden within different sections of the ship.


    Legislation in Japan is moving that would authorize Japan's Coast Guard to inspect North Korean ships in international waters. From The Wall Street Journal:

    A Japanese parliamentary committee passed a bill Thursday to authorize the nation's coast guard to inspect North Korean cargo ships in international waters.

  3. #33
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    Re: Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    That's one of the main thing that prevents peace, because, like the checkpoints in West Bank and the security fence, it makes life impossible for the Palestinians. Don't you agree???
    I'm sure that it's on the laundry list of things that pisses various arab groups off. My point is that removing the blockade would not put an end to the violence in Gaza, which is what you claimed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    We can assume that the elected governments of democratic countries reflect the opinion of their population
    Sure, but why do you think they get a say?

    If the entire world wanted Belgium to start putting more hops in its beer, the fact that 6 billion people voted in favor of it still wouldn't mean ****. Belgium gets to handle its affairs however it wants to handle its affairs.

    Like a boycott?
    A boycott or military action or security council action. There are all sorts of ways in which countries can express their displeasure, so if they're really that angry, why don't they actually do it?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  4. #34
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    Re: Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No its not, you said that Israel should just stop the blockaid.

    I'm saying that in this particular instance, and in others, if Israel offers you an option to dock rather than break the blockaid and earn the consequences they should take it if they really give a damn about Gaza rather than making Israel look bad.
    It would be reasonable indeed.

    But if you look at it from a pragmatic point of view, letting Israel check the boat this time would not change anything, while creating an incident (which was obviously their goal) has much bigger consequences: it drew the world's attention around the blockade, and today many countries say Israel should lift the blockade immediately. That brings quite a lot of pressure on Israel, and though I don't think it will end the blockade immediately, it may be useful, just like international pressure made South Africa end its apartheid.

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    Re: Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I'm sure that it's on the laundry list of things that pisses various arab groups off. My point is that removing the blockade would not put an end to the violence in Gaza, which is what you claimed.
    Well I said it like that once in this thread to be brief, but of course, as I said several times, it's more complex. Let me rephrase it: to reach peace, you need a Palestinian state, and to get a Palestinian state you need (among other things) to lift the blockade since the blockade ruins the economy in Gaza.


    Sure, but why do you think they get a say?
    There is no poll about this precize question indeed, but from my first hand experience I can tell you that I've never met people who didn't condemn the blockade of Gaza in real life.



    If the entire world wanted Belgium to start putting more hops in its beer, the fact that 6 billion people voted in favor of it still wouldn't mean ****. Belgium gets to handle its affairs however it wants to handle its affairs.
    There is a difference between the percentage of hops in beer and the percentage of Palestinians who are aenemic because of the lack of food.

    In the first case it is a culinary question that has nothing to do with international law, in the second case it is an humanitarian question, and you do not ignore that in these cases foreign states have their say on what a country does (see the interventions of the NATO in Kosovo for example)



    A boycott or military action or security council action. There are all sorts of ways in which countries can express their displeasure, so if they're really that angry, why don't they actually do it?
    Nothing can be done in the UN as long as the USA veto every resolution that is too critical towards Israel. As for boycotts, it's already done at a very small scale only. So far, all they've done is verbally condemn Israel and ask for explanations.

  6. #36
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    Re: Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    There is no poll about this precize question indeed, but from my first hand experience I can tell you that I've never met people who didn't condemn the blockade of Gaza in real life.
    My point is that even if everyone else on the planet thinks Israel is wrong, that fact alone doesn't mean anything. If they want to intervene, they can do so, but simply being unhappy won't change anything.


    There is a difference between the percentage of hops in beer and the percentage of Palestinians who are aenemic because of the lack of food.

    In the first case it is a culinary question that has nothing to do with international law, in the second case it is an humanitarian question, and you do not ignore that in these cases foreign states have their say on what a country does (see the interventions of the NATO in Kosovo for example)


    Nothing can be done in the UN as long as the USA veto every resolution that is too critical towards Israel. As for boycotts, it's already done at a very small scale only. So far, all they've done is verbally condemn Israel and ask for explanations.
    And that's exactly my point. Other countries complain and complain whenever the US does anything without UN approval, but they get angry whenever the US stops the SC from going forward and then use that as an excuse for inaction.

    When we and others felt that something was important enough (e.g. Kosovo/Iraq), we formed coalitions and did it anyways. If the rest of the world really feels that strongly about the Israeli situation, it should get together and do the same. If not, then I guess it's not that big a deal.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    My point is that even if everyone else on the planet thinks Israel is wrong, that fact alone doesn't mean anything. If they want to intervene, they can do so, but simply being unhappy won't change anything.




    And that's exactly my point. Other countries complain and complain whenever the US does anything without UN approval, but they get angry whenever the US stops the SC from going forward and then use that as an excuse for inaction.

    When we and others felt that something was important enough (e.g. Kosovo/Iraq), we formed coalitions and did it anyways. If the rest of the world really feels that strongly about the Israeli situation, it should get together and do the same. If not, then I guess it's not that big a deal.
    The only country that looks really pissed is Turkey.

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    Re: Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Under international law, not only is the visiting/inspecting of ships in international waters not generally prohibited, but also there are precedents for it. The U.S. engages in such practices when it deals with ships suspected of carrying narcotics. For example, on the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's website one finds:

    U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement special agents, working jointly with Caribbean Border Initiative (CCI) law enforcement officers, seized here today 1,930 kilograms of cocaine with a street value of approximately $58 million on board the Panamanian-flagged vessel M/V Megan Star...

    As a result of the joint investigative efforts by CCI participants, a U.S. Coast Guard law enforcement detachment on board the USS Farragut Navy vessel intercepted the M/V Megan Star in international waters.

    After successful coordination between officers of the USCG law enforcement detachment, Caribbean Corridor participating agencies, and the government of Panama, USCG personnel boarded the M/V Megan Star. The vessel was subsequently escorted to the Coast Guard base in San Juan for a more thorough inspection which revealed approximately 1,930 kilograms of cocaine hidden within different sections of the ship.


    Legislation in Japan is moving that would authorize Japan's Coast Guard to inspect North Korean ships in international waters. From The Wall Street Journal:

    A Japanese parliamentary committee passed a bill Thursday to authorize the nation's coast guard to inspect North Korean cargo ships in international waters.
    I understand there's precedence, however the situations are not complete analogs, and while there are experts stating that "yes its perfectly legal" there's a fair number going the other way. Far too many, on both sides, to really be able to honestly say with absolute certainty that everything about it was legally on the up and up at this point.

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