• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

They've attacked soldiers before soldiers have attacked them, hence no self defense, and defintley not self defense against lethal force (painball anyone?).
You're a walking beacon of irrationality and your arguments do not fit the standards of human logic.

This inversion of the truth so many propagandists are offering is downright obscene.
 
I'd have to say that, despite all of the problems that the Flotilla activists have encountered, this event is a massive success.
You are correct, win, lose or draw the flotilla was a complete PR success in their favor. That said, it appears that the world community insist on international laws have been violated but, I would be curious if any Maritime laws have been violated on behalf of the Flotilla.
 
They've attacked soldiers before soldiers have attacked them, hence no self defense, and defintley not self defense against lethal force (painball anyone?).
You're a walking beacon of irrationality and your arguments do not fit the standards of human logic.

Did the commandos ask, "Permission to come aboard Captain?"
 
You are correct, win, lose or draw the flotilla was a complete PR success in their favor. That said, it appears that the world community insist on international laws have been violated but, I would be curious if any Maritime laws have been violated on behalf of the Flotilla.

Here's from Reuters agency:
WAS THE INTERCEPTION, IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS, LEGAL?

The Israeli navy said the flotilla was intercepted 120 km (75 miles) west of Israel. The Turkish captain of one of the vessels said they were 68 miles outside Israeli territorial waters. Under the law of blockade, a nation has the right to intercept a vessel in international waters so long as it is deemed to be bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say.
Q&A: What happened in the Gaza flotilla seizure, what's ahead? | Reuters
 
Did the commandos ask, "Permission to come aboard Captain?"

I have no idea, but nothing obliges them to ask that.
It's not like in the movies.

The captain was warned however to stop a couple of times before the interception took place.
 
This inversion of the truth so many propagandists are offering is downright obscene.

What's obscene is the denial of passage of building materials to allow the Gazans to rebuild their homes. Proof positive that the Israelis are clearly anti-cementic*!

*thanks to Jeremy Hardy

Just thought we should take the ire down a notch or two
 
This inversion of the truth so many propagandists are offering is downright obscene.
This accusation can be a two way street, video's speak volumes and a lack of video assumes volumes.
 
Here's another passage from Reuters:
CAN ISRAEL USE FORCE WHEN INTERCEPTING SHIPS?

Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.

"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.

Israeli authorities said marines who boarded the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara opened fire in self-defense after activists clubbed and stabbed them and snatched some of their weapons.

Legal experts say proportional force does not mean that guns cannot be used by forces when being attacked with knives.

"But there has got to be a relationship between the threat and response," Kraska said.

The use of force may also have other repercussions.

"While the full facts need to emerge from a credible and transparent investigation, from what is known now, it appears that Israel acted within its legal rights," said J. Peter Pham, a strategic adviser to U.S. and European governments.

"However, not every operation that the law permits is necessarily prudent from the strategic point of view."
Q&A: Is Israel's naval blockade of Gaza legal? | Reuters
 
What's obscene is the denial of passage of building materials to allow the Gazans to rebuild their homes. Proof positive that the Israelis are clearly anti-cementic*!

*thanks to Jeremy Hardy

Just thought we should take the ire down a notch or two
I thought this was more in line with BP's profile?
 

Well, my husband is a seaman. If the commandos did not follow peaceful procedures, by definition the boarding was not peaceful. The Turks on board the ship were not peaceful either but they were behaving violently defensive. To suggest that the armed, trained Commandos were innocent victims is illogical. The only question is how the Mossad or the I.D.F. could be so incompetent/unprepared- dropping these Commandos one by one in a hostile environment and expectthere would be no bloodshed?!
 
Yes I do understand the rules of Blockades, but in regards to the Flotilla and possible Maritime laws violated on their behalf, such as aggressive behavior towards other ships at sea, injuries to their passengers, flying a false flag, possible smuggling and a whole myriad of other possible violations. I am not by any stretch of the imagination a sea lawyer but, just curious.
 
Well, my husband is a seaman. If the commandos did not follow peaceful procedures, by definition the boarding was not peaceful. The Turks on board the ship were not peaceful either but they were behaving violently defensive. To suggest that the armed, trained Commandos were innocent victims is illogical. The only question is how the Mossad or the I.D.F. could be so incompetent/unprepared- dropping these Commandos one by one in a hostile environment and expectthere would be no bloodshed?!

The boarding was done in full accordance with international law, as Reuters news agency states here.
To suggest that the armed, violent Turks that have attacked the commandos (Who have only responded with live fire after there was a threat to their lives) were somehow victims is illogical.

And yes, as you're stating here the most popular question among Israelis is how come the IDF wasn't ready for a violent confrontation.
They should have had the intelligence to know that the flotila was carrying violent protesters that would try and lynch and murder the soldiers, and have therefore came equipped with assault rifles and not paintball guns.
 
Yes I do understand the rules of Blockades, but in regards to the Flotilla and possible Maritime laws violated on their behalf, such as aggressive behavior towards other ships at sea, injuries to their passengers, flying a false flag, possible smuggling and a whole myriad of other possible violations. I am not by any stretch of the imagination a sea lawyer but, just curious.

Are you speaking about possible violations from the Flotila and its crews?
 
In regards to maritime laws, I believe the ships in question must fly the flag in which country it is registered and must comply to all the laws of the sea, up to and including a legal blockade. The crews of the ships in question would be ultimately be responsible for it's crew and passengers. To sail deliberately into a hostile situation and as a result deaths occur aboard this ships , would be the responsibility of the Captain and owners of these vessels. Smuggling is also taken very seriously and I believe can be considered as a hostile or even a wartime ship. Then again I could be completely wrong on this but, if I was Israel I would have all the Maritime lawyers working on this and if in fact this was the case I would bring suit to the countries and owners and captains of these vessels.
 
In regards to maritime laws, I believe the ships in question must fly the flag in which country it is registered and must comply to all the laws of the sea, up to and including a legal blockade. The crews of the ships in question would be ultimately be responsible for it's crew and passengers. To sail deliberately into a hostile situation and as a result deaths occur aboard this ships , would be the responsibility of the Captain and owners of these vessels. Smuggling is also taken very seriously and I believe can be considered as a hostile or even a wartime ship. Then again I could be completely wrong on this but, if I was Israel I would have all the Maritime lawyers working on this and if in fact this was the case I would bring suit to the countries and owners and captains of these vessels.

Well I haven't consdiered this, but thanks for the information.
I'll do some research about this myself.
 
It is a illegel blockade,. so they sould break it

Ryrine,

This is simply false. The express purpose of the blockade is to restrict the flow of deadly munitions to a belligerent and hostile group of extremists. Legitimate humanitarian aid (about 15,000 tonnes per week) is permitted to flow uninhibited to the populace of Gaza.

Either you do not understand international law or you are being purposely dishonest.
 
Some of them were shot in the back of the head, and back there is no honor in shooting someone in the back of the head, or in the back while they are running away. This simple act means this person is a coward who doesn't want to face his enemy while shooting them, and any one who condones this are people with no honor themselves. Their is alway such a thing like over kill, since one shot in the head is good enough too kill them. This simple was an act of murder by someone with a gun, and so far the ones with a gun were the IDF thought I also read that the people took some guns from the IDF people on board the ship, but do we know if they had been shot off as well?

Cengiz Alquyz, 42

Four gunshot wounds: back of head, right side of face, back, left leg

Ibrahim Bilgen, 60

Four gunshot wounds: right chest, back, right hip, right temple

Cegdet Kiliclar, 38

One gunshot wound: middle of forehead

Furkan Dogan, 19

Five gunshot wounds: nose, back, back of head, left leg, left ankle

Sahri Yaldiz

Four gunshot wounds: left chest, left leg, right leg twice

Aliheyder Bengi, 39

Six gunshot wounds: left chest, belly, right arm, right leg, left hand twice

Cetin Topcuoglu, 54

Three gunshot wounds: back of head, left side, right belly

Cengiz Songur, 47

One gunshot wound: front of neck

Necdet Yildirim, 32

Two gunshot wounds: right shoulder, left back

This report can be found here by the Garudian
 
I don't think they were trying to get anyone killed.

Khay,

Then why were they stabbing and bludgeoning the Israeli commandos?

Like any act of non-violent disobedience...

Again, there was nothing nonviolent about their actions. They brutally attacked the Israeli commandos as soon as they boarded the ship.

...the goal is to expose your enemy's violent/oppressive nature and to draw as much attention to that as possible in order to discredit their false legitimacy.

Israel's blockade of Gaza is the consequence of Palestinian belligerence and hostility, hence it is totally legitimate.

Considering the amount of attention this has gotten and the international outcry to Israel's actions, this is a massive success.

A massive success for the haters of Israel and the Jewish people, yes. I'm not saying you're one of them, but the purpose of this flotilla was to further isolate and demonize the Israeli people. That they succeeded so easily in propagating their lies and bigoted agenda is quite discomfiting.
 
Some of them were shot in the back of the head, and back there is no honor in shooting someone in the back of the head, or in the back while they are running away. This simple act means this person is a coward who doesn't want to face his enemy while shooting them, and any one who condones this are people with no honor themselves. Their is alway such a thing like over kill, since one shot in the head is good enough too kill them. This simple was an act of murder by someone with a gun, and so far the ones with a gun were the IDF thought I also read that the people took some guns from the IDF people on board the ship, but do we know if they had been shot off as well?
What you also may not wish to take as a possibility, is that they might as well have been shot by their buddies while they were attempting to hit the IDF.
 
Some of them were shot in the back of the head, and back there is no honor in shooting someone in the back of the head, or in the back while they are running away. This simple act means this person is a coward who doesn't want to face his enemy while shooting them, and any one who condones this are people with no honor themselves. Their is alway such a thing like over kill, since one shot in the head is good enough too kill them. This simple was an act of murder by someone with a gun, and so far the ones with a gun were the IDF thought I also read that the people took some guns from the IDF people on board the ship, but do we know if they had been shot off as well?



This report can be found here by the Garudian

Of the nine people believed to have died, four are known to be Turkish. Two have been identified, while authorities are trying to confirm the identity of the others. One was named locally as Muharrem Kocak, an IHH volunteer. The nationalities of the remaining dead have not been confirmed.

Yesterday the wife of one of the men, Ali Haydar Bengi, said he “constantly prayed to become a martyr”. Mr Bengi, 39, who had four children, had studied at al-Azhar University in Cairo, a leading seat of Islamic learning.

“Before embarking on the journey, he said he desired to become a martyr,” his friend, Sabir Ceylan, said.

Gaza flotilla attack: Turkish activists killed in raid 'wanted to be martyrs' - Telegraph
 
Of the nine people believed to have died, four are known to be Turkish. Two have been identified, while authorities are trying to confirm the identity of the others. One was named locally as Muharrem Kocak, an IHH volunteer. The nationalities of the remaining dead have not been confirmed.

Yesterday the wife of one of the men, Ali Haydar Bengi, said he “constantly prayed to become a martyr”. Mr Bengi, 39, who had four children, had studied at al-Azhar University in Cairo, a leading seat of Islamic learning.

“Before embarking on the journey, he said he desired to become a martyr,” his friend, Sabir Ceylan, said.

Gaza flotilla attack: Turkish activists killed in raid 'wanted to be martyrs' - Telegraph

All 9 were identified as Turkish, one of them a Turkish person with an American citizenship.
 
All 9 were identified as Turkish, one of them a Turkish person with an American citizenship.
So this as been updated, I already had a gut feeling of this, just didn't want to post it.
 
Back
Top Bottom