• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

texmaster said:
Turkey has officially fallen off the deep end

Erdogan: Hamas not a terrorist group

Erdogan: Hamas not a terrorist group
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/04/2010 18:21

Turkish PM slams Israel for "slaughtering" 19-year-old on ship.
Click to expand...

I always thought Hamas meant "Muslim Brotherhood." Or some crap like that. Like here in America if you say "Ah that guy is part of the deciples." One would assume deciple of Christ. So everytime someone says "Hamas is a terroist organization" its akin to "The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization"
 
Last edited:
dirtpoorchris said:
I always thought Hamas meant "Muslim Brotherhood." Or some crap like that. Like here in America if you say "Ah that guy is part of the deciples." One would assume deciple of Christ. So everytime someone says "Hamas is a terroist organization" its akin to "The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization"
Click to expand...

Goddammit that son of a bitch has destroyed Kemalism. Im sorry, but we need a coup, NOW!!
 
Cassandra said:
That's it? That is all you've got? I cannot tell who is doing what in that clip. Where is the footage that shows the shooting? Who pulled their guns and when? Why didn't the I.D.F. drop tear gas since they apparently knew people had sling shots and pipes? Or why didn't they simply disable the ship? Where were their tasers?

Look, I don't know, yet, how much of the fighting was planned on the part of the Turks. This story is not yet complete. I do know that the I.D.F. planned very poorly and walked right into a P.R. nightmare. You cannot see that?
Click to expand...


"Only the disciplined mind can see reality, Winston. You believe that reality is self-evident. When you delude yourself into thinking that you see something, you assume that everyone else sees the same thing as you. But I tell you, Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else. Not in the individual mind, which can make mistakes, and in any case soon perishes; only in the mind of the Party, which is collective and immortal. Whatever the Party holds to be truth is truth. "
 
alms said:
Cassandra,

I'm not sure if you're being serious, since the footage is quit clear as to what occurred, but I will indulge you and attempt to explain.

The Israeli commando fast-ropes onto the deck and is immediately attacked by the occupants.

Do you have any other questions?
Click to expand...

Yes. I already asked those questions. Repeatedly. None of you care to try to answer. You are too busy looking for evidence of anti-semitism it would seem. In this thread, I have repeatedy noted that on the Turkish ship some individuals armed with clubs engaged the Israeli commandos in combat. Check. This has already been discussed ad nauseum. Film clips posted on page 80 something in this thread, appear to indicate that the Israelis saw the Turks preparing to resist. So......

When were shots fired? Before the film begins or after?
Who fired the shots that killed the boy at close range and why.
Why didn't they use tasers? Why were commandos dropped from helicopters onto a ship where resistance was expected?
There is a protocol for bording ships peaceably at sea. Are you aware of that? Was it followed?
Assuming the boarding was hostile and protocol was NOT followed, why wasn't tear gas administered to protect the first commandos dropped into a hostile situation by helicopter?

All I can say is either y'all lack curiousity or you are satisfied by very little information. There are just a few questions unanswered by the film.
 
Cassandra said:
Yes. I already asked those questions. Repeatedly. None of you care to try to answer. You are too busy looking for evidence of anti-semitism it would seem. In this thread, I have repeatedy noted that on the Turkish ship some individuals armed with clubs engaged the Israeli commandos in combat. Check. This has already been discussed ad nauseum. Film clips posted on page 80 something in this thread, appear to indicate that the Israelis saw the Turks preparing to resist. So......

When were shots fired? Before the film begins or after?
Who fired the shots that killed the boy at close range and why.
Why didn't they use tasers? Why were commandos dropped from helicopters onto a ship where resistance was expected?
There is a protocol for bording ships peaceably at sea. Are you aware of that? Was it followed?
Assuming the boarding was hostile and protocol was NOT followed, why wasn't tear gas administered to protect the first commandos dropped into a hostile situation by helicopter?

All I can say is either y'all lack curiousity or you are satisfied by very little information. There are just a few questions unanswered by the film.
Click to expand...

from what i know, the commandos expected it to be a peacful boarding, so they didn't use the precautions of tear gas, no idea who killed the boy, they did have tasers, i know they used them on another ship, but on the one in question, i don't know if they did but they did have paintball guns, and a pistol as a side arm.
 
Cassandra said:
Yes. I already asked those questions. Repeatedly. None of you care to try to answer. You are too busy looking for evidence of anti-semitism it would seem. In this thread, I have repeatedy noted that on the Turkish ship some individuals armed with clubs engaged the Israeli commandos in combat. Check. This has already been discussed ad nauseum. Film clips posted on page 80 something in this thread, appear to indicate that the Israelis saw the Turks preparing to resist. So......

When were shots fired? Before the film begins or after?
Who fired the shots that killed the boy at close range and why.
Why didn't they use tasers? Why were commandos dropped from helicopters onto a ship where resistance was expected?
There is a protocol for bording ships peaceably at sea. Are you aware of that? Was it followed?
Assuming the boarding was hostile and protocol was NOT followed, why wasn't tear gas administered to protect the first commandos dropped into a hostile situation by helicopter?

All I can say is either y'all lack curiousity or you are satisfied by very little information. There are just a few questions unanswered by the film.
Click to expand...

A "freedom flotilla" ship was consciously trying to run an announced blockade. What actions exactly could/should they (the Israelis) have taken that would satisfy you?

Be specific. And include what contingency plans would have been valid if the passengers on that boat tried to kill those Israeli solders that boarded in the effort to inspect the cargo....



.
 
Some more Information comes out about how the nine victims died some were shoot more than once 1-6 shots. Article is here

Cengiz Alquyz, 42

Four gunshot wounds: back of head, right side of face, back, left leg

Ibrahim Bilgen, 60

Four gunshot wounds: right chest, back, right hip, right temple

Cegdet Kiliclar, 38

One gunshot wound: middle of forehead

Furkan Dogan, 19

Five gunshot wounds: nose, back, back of head, left leg, left ankle

Sahri Yaldiz

Four gunshot wounds: left chest, left leg, right leg twice

Aliheyder Bengi, 39

Six gunshot wounds: left chest, belly, right arm, right leg, left hand twice

Cetin Topcuoglu, 54

Three gunshot wounds: back of head, left side, right belly

Cengiz Songur, 47

One gunshot wound: front of neck

Necdet Yildirim, 32

Two gunshot wounds: right shoulder, left back
Click to expand...

It looks like they had been a little bit of a over kill by the Israeli soldiers in this case which I find disturbing to say the least.
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
Some more Information comes out about how the nine victims died some were shoot more than once 1-6 shots. Article is here



It looks like they had been a little bit of a over kill by the Israeli soldiers in this case which I find disturbing to say the least.
Click to expand...
Unless you were in combat or some level of a firefight, then you would understand. Pulling a 9mm/.45 semiauto, this is usually the result. Overkill..no such thing..there is just dead. BTW lived in Forest Cove and served with the Forest Cove VFD.
 
Cassandra said:
Yes. I already asked those questions. Repeatedly. None of you care to try to answer. You are too busy looking for evidence of anti-semitism it would seem. In this thread, I have repeatedy noted that on the Turkish ship some individuals armed with clubs engaged the Israeli commandos in combat. Check. This has already been discussed ad nauseum. Film clips posted on page 80 something in this thread, appear to indicate that the Israelis saw the Turks preparing to resist. So......

When were shots fired? Before the film begins or after?
Who fired the shots that killed the boy at close range and why.
Why didn't they use tasers? Why were commandos dropped from helicopters onto a ship where resistance was expected?
There is a protocol for bording ships peaceably at sea. Are you aware of that? Was it followed?
Assuming the boarding was hostile and protocol was NOT followed, why wasn't tear gas administered to protect the first commandos dropped into a hostile situation by helicopter?

All I can say is either y'all lack curiousity or you are satisfied by very little information. There are just a few questions unanswered by the film.
Click to expand...
Let me try answering the questions.
The shots fired probably after the filming, or the film hasn't been released.
In the heat of battle, you really don't have time to decern who is man, woman or child, this wasn''t a law enforcement mission but, it was a military mission.
Boarding ships peacefully will usually be agreed upon before boarding by both parties, if this isn't the case then the ship in question will be considered hostile.
In regards to tear gas, this is up to the commander or operators on wether it should be used or not, there is no SOP in this regard because every scenerio will be different.
All said in done, the IDF botched this operation due to the fact they did not use over whelming force with the explicite intent of using lethal force at the first hint of resistants, if this was ordered then perhaps this would have never happened.
 
Cassandra said:
Yes. I already asked those questions. Repeatedly. None of you care to try to answer. You are too busy looking for evidence of anti-semitism it would seem. In this thread, I have repeatedy noted that on the Turkish ship some individuals armed with clubs engaged the Israeli commandos in combat. Check. This has already been discussed ad nauseum. Film clips posted on page 80 something in this thread, appear to indicate that the Israelis saw the Turks preparing to resist. So......

When were shots fired? Before the film begins or after?
Who fired the shots that killed the boy at close range and why.
Why didn't they use tasers? Why were commandos dropped from helicopters onto a ship where resistance was expected?
There is a protocol for bording ships peaceably at sea. Are you aware of that? Was it followed?
Assuming the boarding was hostile and protocol was NOT followed, why wasn't tear gas administered to protect the first commandos dropped into a hostile situation by helicopter?

All I can say is either y'all lack curiousity or you are satisfied by very little information. There are just a few questions unanswered by the film.
Click to expand...

Cassandra,

The ship in question attempted to break a legitimate naval blockade. What did you expect to happen?

And why doesn't it bother you that Israel is being attacked and isolated by bigoted religious extremists?
 
RyrineaHaruno said:
It is a illegel blockade,. so they sould break it
Click to expand...

Two points:

1) You are referring to the general blockade, not the naval blockade.
Just to make sure you understand; naval blockade means that no foreign ship would be given an entrance to the Gazan maritime zone.

2) The general blockade's legality is at best disputed.
In order for it to be considered illegal, it needs to be proven that Israel and Egypt enforce that blockade, which was enforced only when Hamas has taken control over the strip, in order to punish the general civilian population of the Gaza Strip.
 
deltabtry said:
Let me try answering the questions.
The shots fired probably after the filming, or the film hasn't been released.
In the heat of battle, you really don't have time to decern who is man, woman or child, this wasn''t a law enforcement mission but, it was a military mission.
Boarding ships peacefully will usually be agreed upon before boarding by both parties, if this isn't the case then the ship in question will be considered hostile.
In regards to tear gas, this is up to the commander or operators on wether it should be used or not, there is no SOP in this regard because every scenerio will be different.
All said in done, the IDF botched this operation due to the fact they did not use over whelming force with the explicite intent of using lethal force at the first hint of resistants, if this was ordered then perhaps this would have never happened.
Click to expand...

Thankyou!.. How refreshing. A strightforward response w/o accusations of anti-semitism
 
I'd have to say that, despite all of the problems that the Flotilla activists have encountered, this event is a massive success.
 
Apocalypse said:
Two points:

1) You are referring to the general blockade, not the naval blockade.
Just to make sure you understand; naval blockade means that no foreign ship would be given an entrance to the Gazan maritime zone.

2) The general blockade's legality is at best disputed.
In order for it to be considered illegal, it needs to be proven that Israel and Egypt enforce that blockade, which was enforced only when Hamas has taken control over the strip, in order to punish the general civilian population of the Gaza Strip.
Click to expand...

Sounds Nazi like. I wonder where America's rage is? A man killed in the flotilla raid was a dual American / Turkey citizen. How many Americans need to die from situations like this or tear gas shooters aimed right at their face until we start to dislike Israeli government?
 
Last edited:
Khayembii Communique said:
I'd have to say that, despite all of the problems that the Flotilla activists have encountered, this event is a massive success.
Click to expand...

Would suggest that because of the problems encountered the "event was as success". The focused goal of the "freedom flotilla" was to create an international incident and that is just what they accomplished. The morbid reality is, the only way it could have gone better is if more activists had been killed.....


.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
I'd have to say that, despite all of the problems that the Flotilla activists have encountered, this event is a massive success.
Click to expand...

You folks, just like the greatest dictators of mankind's history, are sparkled with joy whenever you manage to transfer a lie.

It's one thing to promote an opinion that is contradicted by the truth, but doing so while knowing of what the truth really is and then boasting on your successful promotion of disinformation is simply repuslive.
 
Would suggest that because of the problems encountered the "event was as success". The focused goal of the "freedom flotilla" was to create an international incident and that is just what they accomplished. The morbid reality is, the only way it could have gone better is if more activists had been killed.....
Click to expand...

I don't think they were trying to get anyone killed. Like any act of non-violent disobedience, the goal is to expose your enemy's violent/oppressive nature and to draw as much attention to that as possible in order to discredit their false legitimacy. Considering the amount of attention this has gotten and the international outcry to Israel's actions, this is a massive success.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
I don't think they were trying to get anyone killed. Like any act of non-violent disobedience, the goal is to expose your enemy's violent/oppressive nature and to draw as much attention to that as possible in order to discredit their false legitimacy. Considering the amount of attention this has gotten and the international outcry to Israel's actions, this is a massive success.
Click to expand...

Extreme violence is now "non violent" Got it.

Is up now considered down as well?
 
Khayembii Communique said:
I don't think they were trying to get anyone killed.
Click to expand...
And I think that's sufficient to label you irrational.
They were stabbing and shooting at soldiers, saying that they weren't trying to kill anyone is pure dishonesty.
 
Khayembii Communique said:
Self defense against lethal force has always been an acceptable contingency of non-violent resistance.
Click to expand...

They've attacked soldiers before soldiers have attacked them, hence no self defense, and defintley not self defense against lethal force (painball anyone?).
You're a walking beacon of irrationality and your arguments do not fit the standards of human logic.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom