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Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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Pff.
You came in late dana, bub has already posted that pages ago. :2razz:
 
Alvin T. Grey said:
So when do we hold the nation of Isreal to the same standard as we hold everyone else? Does the fact that the Holocaust happened give them some kind of free pass?
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I truly couldn't give two ****s about Israel itself as compared to any other similarly situated country. It's an ally, a business partner, and a democracy, so I consider it on par with places like the UK, Australia, Japan, South Korea, etc.

I care about foreign policy and "international law." If the roles were reversed and this were a bunch of Israeli hippies who got boarded while trying to run a blockade to bring supplies to a Jewish neighborhood in Italy, I would feel the exact same way.


bub said:
For those who care about international law:

Who will bring Israel to book over flotilla attack? | Daniel Machover | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk
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Not really sure what to say, since that guy is absolutely wrong. If the ship was carrying contraband (which it was, under Israeli law) or if the blockade is legal, the fact that the ship flew a Turkish flag does not mean that it cannot be intercepted.

Israeli authorities have meanwhile cited International Law provisions applicable to armed conflict at sea. They says that merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral states in neutral waters can be intercepted if they "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade....”
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Moreover, that ignores the inherent authority of a state to proactively take action to protect its sovereignty.

Infinite Chaos said:
Out of curiosity - which resolutions and condemnations are you talking about? Were they UN only or were they also backed up by other International bodies?
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The UN GA has passed all sorts of resolutions condemning Israel (of course, that and 2.25 will get you a ride on the subway). Other international groups like Human Rights Watch have done the same, but much like the UN GA, they have no actual authority.

How do you view those who tried to get around the blockades of WW2 or even the blockade by the USSR of Berlin? (Both times, US forces were heavily involved in getting supplies through the blockades)
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They were of course violating the blockades and were subject to interception by the people manning the blockades. If they refused to change their course, force could have been used against them.

As has been reported widely since - the blockade is daily circumvented in the tunnels from Egypt. That's particularly where the weapons seem to come in. Seems really foolish to put together a botched operation on a humanitarian vessel carrying food and supplies when weapons are being brought in (to everyone's knowledge) via other routes..
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You think that getting involved in land operations along the seven-mile Gaza-Egypt border would cause less conflict than this?


The primary goal of the activists has been to bring the blockade itself back into the world spotlight. Israel gave them one heck of a helping hand in doing so on Monday.
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Agreed.

Infinite Chaos said:
If you've had military experience, you'd know the sound. If however you're a civilian and know there are Israeli forces on their way a stun grendae or "flashbang" could sound like gunfire.
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I was mostly referring to Degreez(?) use of the term to make it sound more dangerous than it actually was. It's like saying "a police officer used hard plastic projectiles intentionally fired at an individual at a high rate of speed with the potential to cause serious injury or potentially death" instead of saying "a police officer fired a beanbag."

Yet others on this thread have said the flotilla was probably bringing real weapons in. My guess if I were preparing for a fight against military units would be to have more useful weapons than a abseball bat and a few wooden poles. One knife was shown on TV and the firearms used apparently were taken off the Israeli commander that was thrown overboard and another commando.
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IMO there was absolutely no chance that the flotilla was bringing actual weapons into Gaza, because they had to know that they were going to be inspected and that would have been a huge PR coup for the Israelis. Instead, what they did was pack a whole bunch of things on the top deck of the ship that could be used as weapons in a fight, but which they could also claim were completely innocuous. That's why we saw lead pipes instead of batons and long kitchen knives instead of hunting knives.
 
RightinNYC said:
Moreover, that ignores the inherent authority of a state to proactively take action to protect its sovereignty.
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The ships were not going to land in Israel!
 
Apocalypse said:
And just you dare say something about Spain(When you're actually saying something about Europe)...
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I'm waiting for somebody to arrive and devote hundreds of postings demonizing Spain (or Belgium, Britain etc) attacking from every conceivable angle, indulging in every conceivable canard and allowing absolutely no reply but complete demonization and then try that "I really have nothing against Spaniards" line of b.s.

Even more interesting would be to note whether the official representatives of various websites would repeat this same mantra.
 
Cassandra said:
Your bias is showing. Maybe you should take a leave of absense and get a grip.
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You just can't believe anything those Joos say, can you.

Is that better?
 
meanwhile, the communications director continues his characteristically clueless, klutzy, comprehensive incoherence

RealClearPolitics - Video - Gibbs Dodges Question On Whether WH Condemns Israeli Response

"this is supported not just by the united states but by the international community"

then he reads the un's statement condemning israel's acts in international waters

did you see what gibbs said yesterday about sestak's job offer---LOL!

this white house has completely lost control of its converse, relegated roundly to runty reactions
 
alexa said:
It is both Humanitarian aid and politically motivated. Both were always made obvious. There are more boats coming so it isn't over yet. Two more from Turkey and one from Ireland.

What I have noticed is that this thread for the past ten pages or so has disintegrated into personal attacks, your's being just one.
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Actually I was just affirming that you WERENT that stupid. But this has NOTHING to do with 'humanitarian aid'. I'll let you in on a dirty little secret. The Arabs in MOST middle eastern countries despise the palestinians. The use them to further their hatred of Israel...but you think they actually give a rats ass about a bunch of broke mud people that have no power, no influence, no value? hell to the no. The ONLY time people 'care' about Palestine is when they offer an excuse to attack Israel. Thats all this is.
 
VanceMack said:
Actually I was just affirming that you WERENT that stupid. But this has NOTHING to do with 'humanitarian aid'. I'll let you in on a dirty little secret. The Arabs in MOST middle eastern countries despise the palestinians. The use them to further their hatred of Israel...but you think they actually give a rats ass about a bunch of broke mud people that have no power, no influence, no value? hell to the no. The ONLY time people 'care' about Palestine is when they offer an excuse to attack Israel. Thats all this is.
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Indeed... if the so called righteous arab neighbours were really concerned about the Palestinians they would have long ago sended them REAL aid.. maybe not all fo you heard, but all humanitarin aid being shipped to Gaza strip is delivered streight to them after weapons inspection.
 
Barney Frank is on Hardball right now speaking in support of Israel in this.
 
ferrugem said:
Indeed... if the so called righteous arab neighbours were really concerned about the Palestinians they would have long ago sended them REAL aid.. maybe not all fo you heard, but all humanitarin aid being shipped to Gaza strip is delivered streight to them after weapons inspection.
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According to the Israeli ambassador to the US, Michael Oren, 100 truckloads of humanitarian aid and food go into Gaza every day. If the flotilla wanted to get humanitarian aid to Gaza they could have simply given it to the Israelis.
 
Redress said:
Barney Frank is on Hardball right now speaking in support of Israel in this.
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I don't think you will really find anyone in the American government speaking out against Israel on this issue. Since the US government officially classifies Hamas as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization", that would leave whoever comes out in their support (especially if that person is a US politician) open to the claim of "you support terrorist groups."

I think those US politicians who might disagree with what Israel did will simply remain silent on the issue, or just condemn the "loss of life", which assigns no blame to anyone.
 
Redress said:
Barney Frank is on Hardball right now speaking in support of Israel in this.
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How about Obama?

Obama must think he is still in the Illinois Senate... voting present.

His silence emboldens enemies.
.
 
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NolaMan said:
I don't think you will really find anyone in the American government speaking out against Israel on this issue. Since the US government officially classifies Hamas as a "Foreign Terrorist Organization", that would leave whoever comes out in their support (especially if that person is a US politician) open to the claim of "you support terrorist groups."

I think those US politicians who might disagree with what Israel did will simply remain silent on the issue, or just condemn the "loss of life", which assigns no blame to anyone.
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Also most politicians know that hippies are basically the worst people on the planet.
 
RightinNYC said:
Also most politicians know that hippies are basically the worst people on the planet.
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I know I won't get within 20 feet of a hippy without soap...
 
zimmer said:
How about Obama?

His silence emboldens enemies.

.
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How exactly has Obama's "silence" on this emboldened enemies?

If you're concerned about increased Islamic terrorism, which one do you think would be more likely to lead to that result:

Obama: "The jihadist supporters and terrorists involved here deserved everything they got. I stand behind Israel fully and will be dispatching US warships to join the blockade. if turkey wants to try again, we will use our military might however necessary."

Obama: "We're going to look into this further, but I express my regret for the harms experienced by all parties involved in this. Hopefully we can come to a peaceful resolution."
 
RightinNYC said:
How exactly has Obama's "silence" on this emboldened enemies?

If you're concerned about increased Islamic terrorism, which one do you think would be more likely to lead to that result:

Obama: "The jihadist supporters and terrorists involved here deserved everything they got. I stand behind Israel fully and will be dispatching US warships to join the blockade. if turkey wants to try again, we will use our military might however necessary."

Obama: "We're going to look into this further, but I express my regret for the harms experienced by all parties involved in this. Hopefully we can come to a peaceful resolution."
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I'm going to take a stab at the latter. The former would be weird given that Islamic Turkish and Pakistani allies are fighting and dying shoulder-to-shoulder with US armed forces in Afghanistan whilst Israeli forces are engaged in damaging US foreign policy objectives in a very direct and violent way.
 
CrazyMcCool said:
The same way they did with this one but hopefully if it came down to having to take over the boat legally like this time, it would be done with a brain behind the operation to limit the casualties on both sides to zero.

they will prob send warships next time to cause a stalemate untill the crew agrees to have their cargo checked..
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A better way to have dealt with the flotilla.

CrazyMcCool said:
indeed it is, but Bibi is an idiot and he has no idea what he is doing...its sad he is PM again..we used to have such good governments here who did beatfull millatery operations which had limited casualties and were amazingly done. But now days the IDF is starting to look like an old grandpa trying to throw a baseball its a hit and miss...at lest untill they replace the defense minister cause I think his time has gone already..
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It's hard to believe it's the same IDF that rescued 100 hostages at Entebbe Airport isn't it?

CrazyMcCool said:
Perhaps its time the people of gaza try and stand up..I bet you they outnumber Hamas and would get support form Israel..
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Not such a far fetched idea – divide and conquer; the current policy of punishing all of Gaza hasn't changed Hama's status and the incident on Monday simply puts Israel further in the light as a hostile force, uninterested in real solutions to the food problems in Gaza.

Loving your posts Mr CrazyMcCool, you're a welcome addition and humour always goes down well in my book.

Zyphlin said:
-- Here's the funny thing...

I have little issue with the other 5 boats on the surface of what we know (without delving into assumptions). They wanted to get past the blockaid to prove a point and/or to deliver their aid, but once they were stopped...as they had to know they were going to be...they submitted to the authority and to the result they knew was extremely likely. If they had somehow managed to "sneak" through and actually make the drop and it was legitimate humanatarian aid you wouldn't see me shed a tear or speak a bad word about them --
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I acknowledge your response to my question about the WW2 era blockades and don;t wish to derail the thread further (having seen Tashah's warnings) so I will address this point – There was apparently violence on the other 5 boats too – all the outrage has so far been directed at the Mamaris. Further, as I've pointed out to others in this thread – the aid ships weren't carrying weapons – Hamas' weapons tend to come via tunnels from Egypt. Going by sea through a naval blockade zone is highly risky – as the flotilla proved.

Apocalypse said:
Israelis want to know why the soldiers weren't equipped with assault rifles and how come they haven't dropped smoke bombs when dropping the soldiers on the ship.
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If you (I've made this point several times in this thread) actually opened the link, you'll see the link relates to Israeli news stories and quotes some of the reporters. However, I'm sure you know better than the BBC reporters who wrote the article.

Apocalypse said:
This just proves to me that you do not question anything that is being said by the activists, since you've just referred to the account of one of those extremists as a fact.

An advice to you would be that they were already caught on two lies.
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Thank you for the advice – do you have proof that all the witnesses on the other boats who have reported violence on all their different boats have lied?
 
bub said:
Yeah, those who resisted the boarding. That does not concern the rest of the crew and those who were on all the other ships.
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The IDF troops were mobbed by a gang of ****ing Jihadists. They should have sunk the ****ing boat and sent those wife beating, gay killing, delusional mother ****ers to the bottom.
 
Agent Ferris said:
The IDF troops were mobbed by a gang of ****ing Jihadists. They should have sunk the ****ing boat and sent those wife beating, gay killing, delusional mother ****ers to the bottom.
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I can't quite work out whether you're being serious. If you are ****! You don't really believe the humanitarian aid activists are all jihadists, do you? Does anyone else believe this?

If you're not... :rofl:rofl:rofl
 
bub said:
You should read very carefully: I'm not saying they should not open fire at the rioters, I'm saying they should do it with restraint. To see if restraint was used, it is useful to compare with similar situations, and the riots in France show that it is possible for the policemen to escape without having to kill many rioters.
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Restraint was not blowing the boat out of the ****ing water which they could have easily done.
 
Andalublue said:
I can't quite work out whether you're being serious. If you are ****! You don't really believe the humanitarian aid activists are all jihadists, do you? Does anyone else believe this?

If you're not... :rofl:rofl:rofl
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You seriously need to quit with your propaganda and learn the facts, this was not a humanitarian mission it was organized by the Islamist Insani Yardim Vakfi or IHH of Turkey which funds Hamas and numerous other global jihadist networks:

IHH, which plays a central role in organizing the flotilla to the Gaza Strip, is a Turkish humanitarian relief fund with a radical Islamic anti-Western orientation. Besides its legitimate philanthropic activities, it supports radical Islamic networks, including Hamas, and at least in the past, even global jihad elements.

IHH - a Turkish humanitarian relief fund with a radical Islamic anti-Western orientation.
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If this was a humanitarian effort they would have accepted Israelis offer to go to an Israeli port for inspection and then have the goods transferred to Gaza from there. The men on the boat were trained to attack the Israelis when the boarded they ship for inspection and are on the record claiming of dreams of martyrdom and becoming shaheeds.

Media reports in Ankara on Wednesday revealed that three out of the four Turkish citizens that were killed during the raid declared their wishes to become shahids (martyrs). Another Dutch report claimed a Dutch activist, who was arrested by the IDF is suspected of being a senior Hamas operative.

3 flotilla fatalities 'dreamt of martyrdom' - Israel News, Ynetnews
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Apocalypse said:
-- Edit: I find your source disputable since I know there are more than a few fat kids in the Gaza strip.
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I love this thread, so many weak dismissals of otherwise recognised international bodies.

Firstly the UN, Amnesty, the ICRC, Geneva Conventions and now save the children. Just wow.

Apocalypse said:
-- I honestly couldn't find the link.
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It's quite a few pages back - I'll find it tomorrow as I'm off to bed soon.

Apocalypse said:
--Watch the videos.
They are seen wearing gas masks, even in the al-Jazeera video.
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I saw one or two - not enough to count as wholesale preparation in the numbers I've seen on this thread when claims the sole purpose of the mission was violence.

RightinNYC said:
-- The UN GA has passed all sorts of resolutions condemning Israel (of course, that and 2.25 will get you a ride on the subway). Other international groups like Human Rights Watch have done the same, but much like the UN GA, they have no actual authority.
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I'm aware of the point of view that none of the bodies have any authority - however what I want is examples of actual resolution that show bias against Israel. Any explanation (I know I'm asking a lot) of why the resolutions show bias would help.

RightinNYC said:
-- You think that getting involved in land operations along the seven-mile Gaza-Egypt border would cause less conflict than this?

--snip--

IMO there was absolutely no chance that the flotilla was bringing actual weapons into Gaza, because they had to know that they were going to be inspected and that would have been a huge PR coup for the Israelis. Instead, what they did was pack a whole bunch of things on the top deck of the ship that could be used as weapons in a fight, but which they could also claim were completely innocuous. That's why we saw lead pipes instead of batons and long kitchen knives instead of hunting knives.
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Basically, we're saying the same thing but from different viewpoints. The flotilla organisers have no interest in the tunnels along the Gaza border with Egypt – also that would involve Hamas which is counterproductive. And as I said in earlier posts, it's not possible to bring in the aid required in quantity required through the tunnels.

Whether the US and pro-Israeli posters like it or not – the intention to highlight the blockade (which doesn't actually hurt Hamas anyway) was always the point. From a strategy POV, it makes perfect sense.

ferrugem said:
Indeed... if the so called righteous arab neighbours were really concerned about the Palestinians they would have long ago sended them REAL aid..
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Maybe you've missed that there's a blockade at sea and the borders into Gaza are controlled. Maybe you've also missed that Israel strictly controls how much of anything gets in legally into Gaza. Maybe it would help to read the thread?

bhkad said:
According to the Israeli ambassador to the US, Michael Oren, 100 truckloads of humanitarian aid and food go into Gaza every day. If the flotilla wanted to get humanitarian aid to Gaza they could have simply given it to the Israelis.
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So why do you suppose the UN and other agencies (with a nod to Apocalypse that none of them can be correct) say what Israel gives is not even a quarter of what is actually needed? Maybe because the Israeli Ambassador is saying it – it cannot be questioned?

If you want a link to what I'm saying – they're all earlier in the thread. Still waiting for evidenced refutes / counter argument from other posters who disagree these agencies findings.
 
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