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Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

And why do you suppose those rocket attacks happened? Because the Palestinians weren't being fenced in by Israelis, weren't denied basic human necessities by Israelis such as food and water, weren't forced out of their homes by Israelis so Israelis could "reclaim" their so-called lands? You think Palestinians picked a fight with a sovereign nation because they didn't have anything else to do that day?

Sorry, but I don't buy it, and the rest of the world is rapidly waking up to the reality that Israeli has become an unrepentant bully in its neighborhood. I can no longer support their antagonistic, aggressively Zionist view of the world. They're simply wrong, IMO.
The only ones surpressing the Palistineans currently is Hamas who is at war with Israel. fencing was built to keep the bombers out. The ones who wish to be engage in am pertual state of war, this will happen. Israel was willing to give 90 percent of the Palistean demands during the Clinton peace negoiations but, Arafat refused. That said the Palistean people have been kicked from Jordan, Eygpt, Syria, put Lebanon into a civil war for a decade and destroyed that country, perhaps you can understand why Israel does what it does. BTW Palistine isn't and never was a sovereign nation nor was it ever was through it's entire history. The Palistean people and their orgins are from the Greek Isles.
 
First let me address the parts you made bold:

-2a: The aid ships made no threat or use of force against Israel's sovereignty. International waters are not part of Israel's sovereignty. Neither is Gaza's coast. They just control it. While rejecting the notion that they are still the Occupying Power in Gaza.

Uh, they declared their intention to violate an Israeli blockade to enter Israel's territorial water in order to unload goods in violation of Israeli law. I'm not sure how you conclude that's not a threat to their sovereignty.

-2d: The ships intent was to bring humanitarian aid to a place where a humanitarian crisis exists. Obviously this upsets you, which is why you would even consider such a relief mission as propaganda. It didn't become propaganda until Israel broke international law and boarding a ship it had no authority to board.

Right. Well, there's no point in debating you any further on this.
 
:confused: Because the ships going forward were not even remotely a threat to Israel, its people, nor its ability to continue being an autonomous nation. The ships were carrying freakin' food, medicine, protective gear, and supplies to put roofs over the heads of a people surrounded by rabid paranoiacs who would attempt to divert and/or attack those who wish to assist others in dire need. Duh.

Well, you might think that a rag-tag collection of humanitarian workers/aid is some kind of massive threat to the autonomy of a powerful nation-state (WITH FREAKIN' NUKES I might add), but as far as I'm concerned you'd be entirely incorrect in that nutty assumption.

Guess what? Neither you nor I get to decide whether this was a threat to their sovereignty, so it doesn't really matter whether you think it's nutty or not.
 
I never stated anything about CLOSE ties, I said links therefor google it not hard to find, that way you can judge for yourself and we won't get into a debate about who links are valid or not valid.

many on your side of the debate are insisting there are close ties to al qaeda
but none of you are able to post anything resembling evidence of that alleged connection
if that portion of your argument is found to be made up, then why should we find the balance of your arguments in support of israeli actions credible
 
many on your side of the debate are insisting there are close ties to al qaeda
but none of you are able to post anything resembling evidence of that alleged connection
if that portion of your argument is found to be made up, then why should we find the balance of your arguments in support of israeli actions credible

As I posted earlier, (post #771) apparently these "humanitarian" vessels were carrying a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks. A group of 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were however carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash.

Frankly, this is just SOP for groups like this. Under the guise of "humanitarianism", they attempt to sneak it things that could only really be used for warlike purposes. Either way, for them it is a victory, if the shipment gets through, they get their materials, if it gets stopped as it did (and should have been) then they get a PR victory.
 
many on your side of the debate are insisting there are close ties to al qaeda
but none of you are able to post anything resembling evidence of that alleged connection
if that portion of your argument is found to be made up, then why should we find the balance of your arguments in support of israeli actions credible
Well prove me wrong because there are links about this and yet there are no links discrediting this. I am not fool nor will I go through life with blinders on. The flotilla organizers knew this would be a win win situation regardless what happened... a classic setup.
 
As I posted earlier, (post #771) apparently these "humanitarian" vessels were carrying a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks. A group of 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were however carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash.

Frankly, this is just SOP for groups like this. Under the guise of "humanitarianism", they attempt to sneak it things that could only really be used for warlike purposes. Either way, for them it is a victory, if the shipment gets through, they get their materials, if it gets stopped as it did (and should have been) then they get a PR victory.

is this all you have as "proof" of an al qaeda connection
 
Well prove me wrong because there are links about this and yet there are no links discrediting this. I am not fool nor will I go through life with blinders on. The flotilla organizers knew this would be a win win situation regardless what happened... a classic setup.

so, you want me to prove a negative
a stunningly ignorant proposition
 
is this all you have as "proof" of an al qaeda connection

I challenge you to find any post in this entire thread when I claimed the ship had any ties to "Al Quada."

Please stop associating comments with me that I never made.
 
so, you want me to prove a negative
a stunningly ignorant proposition
NO it's actually a very simple one, because like your post 782 I would get the same reply. It's clear where you stand and I believe there is no changing your mind even if we place tha actual evidence in your lap, your end game is clear. All one has to do is read you signature, amazing how North Korea didn't make the grade.
 
NO it's actually a very simple one, because like your post 782 I would get the same reply. It's clear where you stand and I believe there is no changing your mind even if we place tha actual evidence in your lap, your end game is clear. All one has to do is read you signature, amazing how North Korea didn't make the grade.

so, you acknowledge you have nothing to support your bogus assertion that there are ties to al qaeda
why do you make crap up and spew it as if it were valid?
 


Here are the "humanitarians" in action.

I guess everybody is free to choose their heroes, eh?
 
So what exactly did the Israeli commandos hope to accomplish with paintball guns? Some owies?
To depress any physical resistance by the peaceful activists crowd if there would have been any, and allow the soldiers to make their way to the captain's room and order him to stop the ship.
If they had no "deadly intent," why board the humanitarian ships at all? If their intent was just to "dissuade" those on a humanitarian mission by driving them into retreat with paintballs or the like, they coulda just, y'know, lobbed water balloons at them from afar.
Do you really think you're making sense with that sentence?
Why initiate a forceful attempt to board?
Because the ships have refused to comply with the navy when it has transmitted a messege twice ordering the ships to stop.
I think the bottom line here is, we're still not entirely clear on the chain of events.
There is a 100% certainity that the soldiers didn't come there with a deadly intent.
On all of the other ships there were zero casualties, on this specific ship we have a footage showing the "peaceful activists" waiting with cold(and perhaps 2 hot) weapons on board for the soldiers.
We know that the soldiers were all equipped with non-lethal weapons such as paintballs and flashbangs and we know that the pistols they were equipped with were only used after a soldier was seriously wounded and all of the other soldiers were in the risk of life.
The soldiers have shown huge restraint by not drawing their weapons through all the time that they were being lynched with knives and metal rods, and that would deserve the respect of anyone who thinks that they should have not fired.
Still, given the long-term attempts by Israel to punish/marginalize/ discriminate against those along the Gaza strip, I'm not particularly inclined to give Israel a pass.
In other words, due to your own opinion and hatred for Israel and your belief that it punishes Gazans everyday between two to four o'clock, if only to show them who' the boss around, you refuse to accept reality and choose to create your own.
 


Is it me or a single gunshot (at 28", possibly a second one at the end of the video) triggered a shooting that killed up to 19 and wounded 36 people?
 
Is it me or a single gunshot (at 28", possibly a second one at the end of the video) triggered a shooting that killed up to 19 and wounded 36 people?

9 people were killed, and it seems like they haven't responded with live fire even after that shot which was directed at them, so it's just you.
 
9 people were killed

Some sources still say 19, that's why I say "up to 19"


and it seems like they haven't responded with live fire even after that shot which was directed at them, so it's just you.

lol how comes there are up to 19 deads and 36 wounded? With the paintballs?
 
Some sources still say 19, that's why I say "up to 19"
Doesn't matter, those are not updated sources it'd seem.
Exactly 9 people were killed and that's a fact.
BBC said:
Nine activists died when Israeli commandos boarded the six-ship convoy early on Monday.
BBC News - Gaza flotilla: Israel starts to free foreign activists

lol how comes there are up to 19 deads and 36 wounded? With the paintballs?
The soldiers did return fire at some point, but as I was saying that point seems to be after live fire was used against the soldiers.
Anyway, how come there are 11 wounded soldiers, and how come one of the soldiers is suffering from gunshots that do not match the soldiers' weapons?
 
Doesn't matter, those are not updated sources it'd seem.
Exactly 9 people were killed and that's a fact.

Israeli commandos kill 19 in attack on flotilla trying to break Gaza blockade | The Australian

we still do not know




The soldiers did return fire at some point, but as I was saying that point seems to be after live fire was used against the soldiers.


So they have responded with live fire even after that shot which was directed at them

Anyway, how come there are 11 wounded soldiers, and how come one of the soldiers is suffering from gunshots that do not match the soldiers' weapons?

Source?
 
No explanation can justify or whitewash the crime that was committed, and no excuse can explain away the stupid actions of the government and the army. Israel did not send its soldiers to kill civilians in cold blood; this is the last thing it wanted. Yet, a small Turkish organisation, fanatical in its religious views and radically hostile to Israel, recruited to its cause several hundred seekers of peace and justice, and managed to lure Israel into a trap, because it knew how Israel would react, knew how Israel is destined and compelled, like a puppet on a string, to react the way it did.

How insecure, confused and panicky a country must be, to act as Israel acted! With a combination of excessive military force, and a fatal failure to anticipate the intensity of the reaction of those aboard the ship, it killed and wounded civilians, and did so – as if it were a band of pirates – outside its territorial waters.

The Gaza flotilla attack shows how far Israel has declined | David Grossman | Comment is free | The Guardian
 
That article is from the 1st of June, from yesterday.
My assumption that your sources are not dated was correct.
As to current time, the 2nd of June, it is a fact that 9 people have died as the BBC states it clearly, "Nine activists died" -BBC.
So they have responded with live fire even after that shot which was directed at them
Not immidately after as the word "triggered" implied.
I don't have time to look for the direct source, but here's one of the sources from a quick googling:
Israel's minister of public affairs, Yuli Edelstein, told CNN that an IDF soldier was wounded with a gun that was not an IDF gun.
Israel begins freeing foreigners held after Gaza flotilla raid - CNN.com
 
Then there's no point in me trying to debate with you any more. If you've made your mind up based on nothing but the bare allegations of one of the involved parties, then I can't expect you to be open-minded about anything else.
I reported what one of the passangers reported. An elderly, around 70 Amerrican Man who was released from one of the boats where there was "no violence".

The only place where I put an opinion was that in my opinion violence against non violence is violence. If you have a problem with that you have a problem with the very basis of morality and you are correct, there is probably little we have to speak about.

How is attacking a group of soldiers "passive resistance"?
It is a great pity some people feel a need to answer things without reading them. I was not talking about attacking anyone. I was talking about people on one of the 'non violent' boats sitting down in passive resistance. If you believe sitting down is an act of violence then you really do have a problem. I further reported that this 70 year old elderly man reported that the Israeli soldiers beat these people involved in this passive resistance (sitting down) and that he said his friend was in hospital black and blue and that Israel was allowing no one to visit him. I further made clear that this was what he said and that my believe was that he was being as honest as he was able to be.

You did not read what I said. You are to gun hoe, wanting to blame people from the ship regardless and letting Israeli soldiers off regardless.

If you believe in hitting innocent people who are sitting down, I think your morals stink

Again, I don't have a problem with the actions of the other boats. I have a problem with the people who attacked the soldiers and then cried when they lost.

In that case you should learn to read correctly. You should also develop the intelligence to look at the whole situation.

And yet you've made up your mind that these soldiers beat an unarmed elderly man who was offering no resistance.

Wrong again. I reported that an elderly American man reported that the people involved in the passive resistance were beaten up and that his friend was black and blue and in hospital because of this. He never said the age of the man and I never said this was my belief. I simply reported what the elderly American man who was understandably severely shaken said.

The only place where I gave my opinion was that in my opinion to beat up people who are sitting down in passive resistance is an over reaction
 
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The only boat where there was violance is on the big one...On all other boats no one was beat or anything, they cooperated and everything went smooth and their cargo is already in Gaza :_)

Peace activist == Passive resistance

Stupid Activist == ZOMGKNIFE STAB STAB STAB :lol:
 
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