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Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

Ikari said:
But it's a total blockade
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Define a "Total blockade", please.
which means it affects everyone. It doesn't just get Hamas.
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Naturally, it's a blockade of a piece of land and hence it would affect everyone inside it.
I cannot see however how does that equal to being a "collective punishment".
You can't blockade a government without blockading the people it governs.
It doesn't just get Hamas. That's like claiming it's ok to bomb an apartment complex with 20-30 innocent people in there because at one time there was a terrorist. And claiming that such act doesn't collectively punish or hurt the Palestinian people. As I said, you can only treat people like dirt for so long. Eventually they'll fight back.
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It seems to me like you're against blockades in general.
Every blockade in the history of men has affected everyone inside the blockaded area, and you seem to claim that only the Israeli and Egyptian blockades on Gaza have that result.

Blockading the Hamas does not equal to punishing the people it governs, blockading a territory in general does not equal to the punishment of the people inside it.
 
jamesrage said:
If a country has a blackade against another country then it is ****ing stupid to try to pass through that blockade. Of course I am sure that fact will get ignored by that Isreali bashers just like any other time Israel defends itself or retaliates for some attack by one of its neighbors. I don't blame Israel for not trusting any boat going to the Palestinians,how many terrorist attacks did the Palestinians do against Israel.
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Is it ****ing stupid to run an illegal blockade, or just ****ing brave when the only weapons you have are a couple of hunting knives and a slingshot? That David, when he took on Goliath, he was just ****ing stupid, eh?
 
Apocalypse said:
Define a "Total blockade", please.
Naturally, it's a blockade of a piece of land and hence it would affect everyone inside it.
I cannot see however how does that equal to being a "collective punishment".
You can't blockade a government without blockading the people it governs.
It seems to me like you're against blockades in general.
Every blockade in the history of men has affected everyone inside the blockaded area, and you seem to claim that only the Israeli and Egyptian blockades on Gaza have that result.

Blockading the Hamas does not equal to punishing the people it governs, blockading a territory in general does not equal to the punishment of the people inside it.
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The blockade is punishing the people inside though. You are effecting everything and anything they can get, including that which is necessary for survival. You think you can starve people and that's cool? That they shouldn't fight back then? Deny them basic amenities, infringe upon their rights as much as possible, and they should sit there and take it? Sick.
 
Ikari said:
You certainly read a lot into things. But you should probably know better by now. There is no doubt that conflict between Palestine and Israel erupted once Israel was created.
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That's very misleading, the conflict was live and strong even before Israel's creation.
The first Palestinian-Arab terrorism was at 1921, 27 years before the creation of Israel.
And even if it was true I fail in seeing the point you're trying to make here.
You wanted to know the beginning, that was the beginning. And only a partisan idiot would deny that the creation of Israel in hostile lands didn't have anything to do with the start of conflict.
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You're insulting no one's intelligence but your own with those statements.
History knows that the conflict was going on before the creation of Israel.
But I said the beginning doesn't matter anymore, and nor does it. What matters is the endless cycle of hate and death which was created in the wake because neither side was ever able to accept the other. Israel could exist just fine if both sides would acknowledge each others humanity. But Israel treats the Palestinians like crap, denies as much as possible, takes as much land, fences them in like animals, patrols their streets, lodge soldiers in their homes, etc. And Palestine lashes back with whatever piss poor crap it can do. And everything is repeated. Zionists use the lashing out as excuse for more intervention against the Palestinian people. The Palestinian supporters use the increased intervention against the rights and liberties of the Palestinian people as excuse to lash out even more.
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Israel has very strict laws against the abusing of Palestinians, and the rare ones who do that are being punished by the state's law.
To claim that Israel treats the Palestinians like crap is to claim the absent of knowledge over reality.

And I love the way you're using the word "Zionists" there.
 
Ikari said:
The blockade is punishing the people inside though. You are effecting everything and anything they can get, including that which is necessary for survival. You think you can starve people and that's cool? That they shouldn't fight back then? Sick.
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People aren't starving in Gaza, there are countless of fat kids there.
Besides that, once more, every blockade in history was affecting everyone inside of the blockaded territory - that is not new.
What would make the blockade illegal would be the Israeli intention to collectively punish the Palestinian people, which does not exist.
I can support that claim by pointing towards the fact that Israel and Egypt have only called on the blockade once the terrorist organization of Hamas has taken over the strip, and not before it, hence it is clear that the blockade is against Hamas.

By the way I love the way you are referring to terrorism against Israeli civilians as "fighting back", trying to legitimize it.
 
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Apocalypse said:
That's very misleading, the conflict was live and strong even before Israel's creation.
The first Palestinian-Arab terrorism was at 1921, 27 years before the creation of Israel.
And even if it was true I fail in seeing the point you're trying to make here.
You're insulting no one's intelligence but your own with those statements.
History knows that the conflict was going on before the creation of Israel.
Israel has very strict laws against the abusing of Palestinians, and the rare ones who do that are being punished by the state's law.
To claim that Israel treats the Palestinians like crap is to claim the absent of knowledge over reality.

And I love the way you're using the word "Zionists" there.
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You can try to pretend that Israel does everything by the book. But the fact of the matter is they routinely and aggressively act against the rights and liberties of Palestinian people. That can only go on for so long before people start fighting back; and you shouldn't be surprised when they fight back.
 
Apocalypse said:
People aren't starving in Gaza, there are countless of fat kids there.
Besides that, once more, every blockade in history was affecting everyone inside of the blockaded territory - that is not new.
What would make the blockade illegal would be the Israeli intention to collectively punish the Palestinian people, which does not exist.
I can support that claim by pointing towards the fact that Israel and Egypt have only called on the blockade once the terrorist organization of Hamas has taken over the strip, and not before it, hence it is clear that the blockade is against Hamas.
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It may be in response to Hamas, but you cannot pull it off without collectively punishing everyone. That's the dynamic behind the blockade. You stop **** from coming in, and it's not just stuff that Hamas was going to use. This is stuff necessary for the Palestinian people. You stop all ships, not all the ships are aiding Hamas, some are humanitarian, some are food stuffs, etc. But you block all ships. You cannot with any amount of intellectual integrity claim that the reality is that the people aren't somehow collectively punished for the actions of Hamas.
 
Apocalypse said:
I don't care what nations say, the world is filled with agenda-motivated hypocrites and this is nothing new, what I want you to do is not to refer to other nations' opinions but to the facts themselves.
Clearly in order for the blockade to be illegal the intention must be to collectively punish the Gazan people.
Can you prove that Israel is collectively punishing the Gazan people, and not simply cutting supplies to the terrorist organization that governs them?
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BBC Link

I read somewhere else on the BBC that Coriander was one of the banned substances... it's been a while since I was in the military and the only hostile thing you could make with coriander was a Madras curry but I'm boggled if I know what Hamas would be doing with coriander.

I'll say my "goodnights" again now.
 
reefedjib said:
The UN is not impartial.

Boarding a ship for inspection is not an attack on the ship.

The video shows the passengers initiated violence.
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It most certainly does not. A part of the film shows passengers being aggressive. Unless you have access to all the film shot on the ship, you cannot make this assumption. Most people would regard a military assault from helicopters as nothing to do with the initiation of a peaceful inspection.

It is legitimate for Israel to board these ships in international waters.
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It is not. Please see IC and Don's exchange of views, I don't think it would be helpful for us to repeat the discussion. Needless to say, I agree with IC.

The original aggressors were NOT the Israelis.
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The blockade of Gaza is legitimate.
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Those might both be the opinions of the Israeli government and a few of their staunchest allies in the US, but the level of condemnation from all around the World suggests that international opinion does not concur, as indeed, neither does the UN.

The convoy's attempt to break the blockade is reason enough for them to be boarded.
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Not in international waters, using lethal force and taking citizens of other soverieign states hostage. Israel has once again gone too far and used disproportionate violence. They are now reaping the diplomatic consequences of their actions.
 
Andalublue said:
Is it ****ing stupid to run an illegal blockade, or just ****ing brave when the only weapons you have are a couple of hunting knives and a slingshot? That David, when he took on Goliath, he was just ****ing stupid, eh?
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They've also had two assault rifles.
I think only cowards use the cover of peace activists to attack soldiers that do not fire back, and I think it's ****ing brave not to draw your weapon out and shoot when you're at the danger of life if only because of your values.
 
Ikari said:
You can try to pretend that Israel does everything by the book. But the fact of the matter is they routinely and aggressively act against the rights and liberties of Palestinian people. That can only go on for so long before people start fighting back; and you shouldn't be surprised when they fight back.
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You can try and pretend that Israel is the source of the world's evil and legitimize the murdering of its civilians, but Israel isn't going anywhere.
 
Apocalypse said:
I think only cowards use the cover of peace activists to attack soldiers that do not fire back, and I think it's ****ing brave not to draw your weapon out and shoot when you're at the danger of life if only because of your values.
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What about acts of using industrialized military power against weddings, picnics, and apartment complexes which are occupied by many innocent lives? Cowardly?
 
Apocalypse said:
You can try and pretend that Israel is the source of the world's evil and legitimize the murdering of its civilians, but Israel isn't going anywhere.
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I never claimed any of that. That's for showing that you are indeed not intellectually honest.
 
Ikari said:
What about acts of using industrialized military power against weddings, picnics, and apartment complexes which are occupied by many innocent lives? Cowardly?
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We've already established Hamas doing that yes
 
Ikari said:
It may be in response to Hamas, but you cannot pull it off without collectively punishing everyone. That's the dynamic behind the blockade. You stop **** from coming in, and it's not just stuff that Hamas was going to use. This is stuff necessary for the Palestinian people. You stop all ships, not all the ships are aiding Hamas, some are humanitarian, some are food stuffs, etc. But you block all ships. You cannot with any amount of intellectual integrity claim that the reality is that the people aren't somehow collectively punished for the actions of Hamas.
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Once more you're only stating opposition to blockades in general, not this specific blockade.
 
Ikari said:
I never claimed any of that. That's for showing that you are indeed not intellectually honest.
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Dishonesty.

You have claimed for more than one time in this thread that what Hamas is doing is "fighting back", legitimizing terrorism against Israeli civilians.
 
Apocalypse said:
Once more you're only stating opposition to blockades in general, not this specific blockade.
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No, you said that it doesn't collectively punish the Palestinian people. I said by definition of what a blockade is, it most certainly does collectively punish the Palestinian people. Stay on target.
 
Ikari said:
What about acts of using industrialized military power against weddings, picnics, and apartment complexes which are occupied by many innocent lives? Cowardly?
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If the intention is to kill civilians then surely it is cowardly.
 
Apocalypse said:
Dishonesty.

You have claimed for more than one time in this thread that what Hamas is doing is "fighting back", legitimizing terrorism against Israeli civilians.
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And there are times when the Palestinian people are doing just that. I didn't however claim that Israel is the "source of the world's evil and legitimize the murdering of its civilians"
 
Apocalypse said:
If the intention is to kill civilians then surely it is cowardly.
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There could be no other intent. Because you know the civilians are in there. So when you fire those rockets, you do so full well knowing that you are attacking and killing innocent civilians.
 
Ikari said:
No, you said that it doesn't collectively punish the Palestinian people. I said by definition of what a blockade is, it most certainly does collectively punish the Palestinian people. Stay on target.
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I don't even have to point out towards the absurdness of that statement.
Simply ask yourself why would they have to use the word "illegal" on a blockade if all blockades were illegal.
 
It is not. Please see IC and Don's exchange of views, I don't think it would be helpful for us to repeat the discussion. Needless to say, I agree with IC.
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I go with Don's interpretation.


Those might both be the opinions of the Israeli government and a few of their staunchest allies in the US, but the level of condemnation from all around the World suggests that international opinion does not concur, as indeed, neither does the UN.
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This does not change the fact that it is legitimate.

Not in international waters, using lethal force and taking citizens of other soverieign states hostage. Israel has once again gone too far and used disproportionate violence. They are now reaping the diplomatic consequences of their actions.
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Nope.
 
Apocalypse said:
I don't even have to point out towards the absurdness of that statement.
Simply ask yourself why would they have to use the word "illegal" on a blockade if all blockades were illegal.
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Quit trying to deflect. You said that the blockade does not collectively punish the Palestinian people. I have demonstrated that statement to be false by the precise nature of a blockade. But maybe you can make another deflect statement that has nothing to do with what we're discussing so Texmaster there has another post to thank.
 
Ikari said:
There could be no other intent. Because you know the civilians are in there. So when you fire those rockets, you do so full well knowing that you are attacking and killing innocent civilians.
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I can't see your point.
When the US army/NATO/Israel/etc cause civilians deaths it's usually because they didn't know that civilians are there.
Like that time when NATO has dropped bombs on some fuel tanks hijacked by terrorists not knowing that civilians came there to gather fuel, killing over 45 civilians.
 
Ikari said:
And there are times when the Palestinian people are doing just that. I didn't however claim that Israel is the "source of the world's evil and legitimize the murdering of its civilians"
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In this thread when you first used the term "fighting back" you have referred to the launching of rockets by Hamas.

I don't think you get it but this means you're legitimizing those actions.
 
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