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Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

What do you propose that Israel should have done instead?
It was a lose-lose situation, either you let a ship into Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip without inspecting its cargo, or you do what Israel did and board the ship.
The non-innocent civilians' deaths are the result of the fact that no one has even assumed that a bunch of peaceful activists would be packing weapons and lynch the soldiers, that were equipped with paintball guns.

Of course it was a lose/lose situation which is why I feel sorry for Israel.
A violent confrontation played right into Hamas's agenda.

Seeing Turkey would have known about the cargo as so many of its citizens were on board, would it not have made sense to get them on board (and by them = Govt.) and say Israel would allow the cargo through as long as it was searched?
 
Again, how much land should Israel have to give up for peace? All of it? how many rockets that kill civilians should Israel endure?


j-mac

We're derailing this thread however while Israel continues to act unilaterally by choosing when and whether to abide by international agreements, the Arabs who are on the end of those decisions will continue to act as they do. Why should the arabs abide by any rules when Israel equally does not?

Anyhow, Israel isn't going to give up land anytime soon - particularly under Netanyahu - and the problem will continue to exist. The arabs aren't just going to lie down and live at peace within Israeli dictated terms anytime soon either. Either way - while nobody acts appropriately there aren't going to be any cessations in rocket attacks.
 
Build your house illegally and it'd be destroyed, whether you live in East Jerusalem or in Amsterdam.

Well, not in West Bank, but that's another debate
 
have you read the Gisha refutation of the claim of the usage of the word "blockade?"

"Collective punishment" is far more truthful.


"Gisha" is a pro Palestinian propaganda organization, working within the Israeli system to undermine it. Much like the ACLU does here.


j-mac
 
Of course it's misleading - the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice have all said it was illegal and against the conventions and the Israeli Supreme Court has said it is legal under those same conventions.
And that's not the reason why it's misleading.
have you read the Gisha refutation of the claim of the usage of the word "blockade?"
Gisha is a small radical left organization, I do not read their reports and I couldn't really give a damn about them, but if you'd link to the report I'd be glad to refute their bullcrap.
"Collective punishment" is far more truthful.
Actually it's completely false and rejects reality.
 
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Well, not in West Bank, but that's another debate

We're talking about East Jerusalem here.
The only houses to be destroyed in the West Bank by Israeli authorities are houses of terrorists, and that's a very rare action.
 
The UN is absolutely not impartial. The video says it all. The Israelis were attacked. No investigation is necessary.

That's a very funny response. In the interests of balance let me reply... the UN is the ONLY impartial body that can investigate these incidents. The video says much but far from all. The Israelis were indeed attacked AFTER they attacked ships of a soverign nation in international waters using military assault methods. The original aggressors are clearly the Israelis. An investigation is clearly needed and, in this (alone) I agree with Don Sutherland, as much for Israel's benefit as anyone else's.

If an inquiry finds that the Israelis were provoked into their actions by a clear and present danger, that the blockade they were enforcing has any legal legitimacy, and that the Israeli force was attacked before they began the assault on the vessels (iei that the convoy was using violent force to make its way to Gaza) then they will be exonerated.
 
Israel would have had every right to do what they did if the ships were in their coastal waters. However, if they were in International waters as I've heard, then Israel was in the wrong and is being justly scrutinized.
 
Gisha is a small radical left organization

And who cares? They were carrying food and wheelchairs to Gaza. You'll reply that it is illegal to break a blockade, but the blockade itself is illegal, and the UN has asked numerous times to end it.


Actually it's completely false and rejects reality.

Not according to the UN and most of the world outside Israel
 
We're derailing this thread however while Israel continues to act unilaterally by choosing when and whether to abide by international agreements, the Arabs who are on the end of those decisions will continue to act as they do. Why should the arabs abide by any rules when Israel equally does not?

Anyhow, Israel isn't going to give up land anytime soon - particularly under Netanyahu - and the problem will continue to exist. The arabs aren't just going to lie down and live at peace within Israeli dictated terms anytime soon either. Either way - while nobody acts appropriately there aren't going to be any cessations in rocket attacks.


That's bologna! Israel has time and time again given concessions toward peace. Hamas has in its charter to wipe out Israel, and drive them into the Sea. As long as that type of violent ideology exists, then Israel is within their rights to defend themselves, and take measures to secure the safety of their population.


j-mac
 
Yes, this same august body made up of representatitives of so many totalitarian states and tin pot dictatorships, having once passed a resolution calling the right of self determination for Jewish people "racism" is now "impartial"?

I can't imagine how anybody could be so incredibly naive as to believe that.

At the risk of becoming repetitive, then who should and could conduct an impartial inquiry?
 
No one was surprised, the blockade only came several years after the beginning of the rocket attacks on Israeli civilians by Hamas from the Gaza strip.

Which started after years of Israeli abuse, which started after years of Palestinian retaliation, which began after years of Israeli aggression, which began after years of Palestinian attacks. Ect. etc. etc. We know the story. Both sides hate each other, both sides are horrible horrible dicks to each other. It's nothing but a circle of hate and violence now and all parties involved are too stupid to see the way out. All I'm saying is that it's no surprise that Palestinians act the way they do. You can only treat humans like dirt for so long, worthless, rightless pieces of meat before they get pissed off and fight back.
 
"Collective punishment" is far more truthful.

You have certainly displayed that you can mimic a popular buzzphrase, having repeated this hackneyed dogma time and time again. Since Israel offered to allow the ships to proceed through normal channels, however, who is being punished collectively?
 
Of course it was a lose/lose situation which is why I feel sorry for Israel.
A violent confrontation played right into Hamas's agenda.

Seeing Turkey would have known about the cargo as so many of its citizens were on board, would it not have made sense to get them on board (and by them = Govt.) and say Israel would allow the cargo through as long as it was searched?

First of all who says that Turkey can be trusted with that?
Secondly they would not have agreed to stop the flotila, do remember that they called Israel not to intercept the ship and let it run the blockade.
 
"Gisha" is a pro Palestinian propaganda organization, working within the Israeli system to undermine it. Much like the ACLU does here.


j-mac

-- Gisha is a small radical left organization, I do not read their reports and I couldn't really give a damn about them

Well well...

-- but if you'd link to the report I'd be glad to refute their bullcrap.

I already did - about 4-5 posts ago to j-mac.

--Actually it's completely false and rejects reality.

Says who? On the other side, the UN, Amnesty International and the Swiss Govt (to name a few) have said otherwise. I should believe you because.............?
 
Which started after years of Israeli abuse, which started after years of Palestinian retaliation, which began after years of Israeli aggression, which began after years of Palestinian attacks. Ect. etc. etc. We know the story. Both sides hate each other, both sides are horrible horrible dicks to each other. It's nothing but a circle of hate and violence now and all parties involved are too stupid to see the way out. All I'm saying is that it's no surprise that Palestinians act the way they do. You can only treat humans like dirt for so long, worthless, rightless pieces of meat before they get pissed off and fight back.


So in your 'chicken and the egg' analogy, where is the start of this?


j-mac
 
Which started after years of Israeli abuse, which started after years of Palestinian retaliation, which began after years of Israeli aggression, which began after years of Palestinian attacks. Ect. etc. etc. We know the story. Both sides hate each other, both sides are horrible horrible dicks to each other. It's nothing but a circle of hate and violence now and all parties involved are too stupid to see the way out. All I'm saying is that it's no surprise that Palestinians act the way they do. You can only treat humans like dirt for so long, worthless, rightless pieces of meat before they get pissed off and fight back.
I'm completely fine with you having an opinion but I what I mean to say is that the blockade specifically is the direct result of rockets launched by Hamas on Israeli civilians and has only been enforced once Hamas took over the strip and became its governmental body, which is a cutting evidence that this is not a collective punishment as some would claim but a punishment against Hamas and Hamas alone.
 
You have certainly displayed that you can mimic a popular buzzphrase, having repeated this hackneyed dogma time and time again. Since Israel offered to allow the ships to proceed through normal channels, however, who is being punished collectively?

Still no intelligent response or question eh? If you don't mind, I'm discussing this with j-Mac and Apocalpse - I respect their difference and tactics as they haven't resorted to simple insults. One of the reasons I apologised to j-Mac for underestimating him.

Goodbye.
 
Well well...



I already did - about 4-5 posts ago to j-mac.



Says who? On the other side, the UN, Amnesty International and the Swiss Govt (to name a few) have said otherwise. I should believe you because.............?

I don't care what nations say, the world is filled with agenda-motivated hypocrites and this is nothing new, what I want you to do is not to refer to other nations' opinions but to the facts themselves.
Clearly in order for the blockade to be illegal the intention must be to collectively punish the Gazan people.
Can you prove that Israel is collectively punishing the Gazan people, and not simply cutting supplies to the terrorist organization that governs them?
 
So in your 'chicken and the egg' analogy, where is the start of this?


j-mac

Probably with England making Israel. But the beginning is no longer important. It's now a cycle with no beginning and no end. Just endless rounds of lost human life over stupid things. And because both sides are blind, there can be no solution.
 
Still no intelligent response or question eh? If you don't mind, I'm discussing this with j-Mac and Apocalpse - I respect their difference and tactics as they haven't resorted to simple insults. One of the reasons I apologised to j-Mac for underestimating him.

Goodbye.


You acted in a condescending fashion towards Americans, when the favor was returned, you insulted my intelligence, and now you repeat yourself.

Just because you repeat dogmatic buzz phrases, that does not mean you are offering any sort of valid argument.
 
That's a very funny response. In the interests of balance let me reply... the UN is the ONLY impartial body that can investigate these incidents. The video says much but far from all. The Israelis were indeed attacked AFTER they attacked ships of a soverign nation in international waters using military assault methods. The original aggressors are clearly the Israelis. An investigation is clearly needed and, in this (alone) I agree with Don Sutherland, as much for Israel's benefit as anyone else's.

If an inquiry finds that the Israelis were provoked into their actions by a clear and present danger, that the blockade they were enforcing has any legal legitimacy, and that the Israeli force was attacked before they began the assault on the vessels (iei that the convoy was using violent force to make its way to Gaza) then they will be exonerated.

The UN is not impartial.

The video shows the passengers initiated violence.

Boarding a ship for inspection is not an attack on the ship.

It is legitimate for Israel to board these ships in international waters.

The original aggressors were NOT the Israelis.

The blockade of Gaza is legitimate.

The convoy's attempt to break the blockade is reason enough for them to be boarded.
 
I'm completely fine with you having an opinion but I what I mean to say is that the blockade specifically is the direct result of rockets launched by Hamas on Israeli civilians and has only been enforced once Hamas took over the strip and became its governmental body, which is a cutting evidence that this is not a collective punishment as some would claim but a punishment against Hamas and Hamas alone.

But it's a total blockade, which means it affects everyone. It doesn't just get Hamas. That's like claiming it's ok to bomb an apartment complex with 20-30 innocent people in there because at one time there was a terrorist. And claiming that such act doesn't collectively punish or hurt the Palestinian people. As I said, you can only treat people like dirt for so long. Eventually they'll fight back.
 
Probably with England making Israel. But the beginning is no longer important. It's now a cycle with no beginning and no end. Just endless rounds of lost human life over stupid things. And because both sides are blind, there can be no solution.


Interesting, so your belief, and forgive me if I misstate it, but your belief is that the very existence of Israel is an affront to Arabs in the region, and should not have been? So you agree with the Hamas charter?


j-mac
 
Interesting, so your belief, and forgive me if I misstate it, but your belief is that the very existence of Israel is an affront to Arabs in the region, and should not have been? So you agree with the Hamas charter?


j-mac

You certainly read a lot into things. But you should probably know better by now. There is no doubt that conflict between Palestine and Israel erupted once Israel was created. You wanted to know the beginning, that was the beginning. And only a partisan idiot would deny that the creation of Israel in hostile lands didn't have anything to do with the start of conflict. But I said the beginning doesn't matter anymore, and nor does it. What matters is the endless cycle of hate and death which was created in the wake because neither side was ever able to accept the other. Israel could exist just fine if both sides would acknowledge each others humanity. But Israel treats the Palestinians like crap, denies as much as possible, takes as much land, fences them in like animals, patrols their streets, lodge soldiers in their homes, etc. And Palestine lashes back with whatever piss poor crap it can do. And everything is repeated. Zionists use the lashing out as excuse for more intervention against the Palestinian people. The Palestinian supporters use the increased intervention against the rights and liberties of the Palestinian people as excuse to lash out even more.
 
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