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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

  1. #771
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    You provided two examples that are not analogous with the incident we are discussing in this thread. Had the US and UK boarded humanitarian vessels on a relief effort, then you may have a point. The US and UK boarded boats that were smuggling narcotics (permissible according to article 108). Come back when you have an appropriate analogy.
    Apparently these "humanitarian" vessels were carrying a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks. A group of 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were however carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash.

    Link

    Seems that the idea of "humanitarian flotilla" is quickly falling apart.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    ...to prevent the ship from continuing forward. I'm not sure why that's so implausible.
    Because the ships going forward were not even remotely a threat to Israel, its people, nor its ability to continue being an autonomous nation. The ships were carrying freakin' food, medicine, protective gear, and supplies to put roofs over the heads of a people surrounded by rabid paranoiacs who would attempt to divert and/or attack those who wish to assist others in dire need. Duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Which might be contributing to your refusal to recognize a perfectly rational reason for boarding the ship.
    Well, you might think that a rag-tag collection of humanitarian workers/aid is some kind of massive threat to the autonomy of a powerful nation-state (WITH FREAKIN' NUKES I might add), but as far as I'm concerned you'd be entirely incorrect in that nutty assumption.

    And before anyone saddles up for the YOU HATE J00Z!~! posse, it's important to know that for decades I've been squarely behind Israel in its attempts to create a safe haven for its people. I'm a Polack. My grandparents were dragged out of their beds and massacred just like the Jews were. My aunts and uncles ended up in Nazi concentration camps just like the Jews did. I'm no Jew hater.

    I am, however, able to recognize when the oppressed become oppressors. And I will condemn that forever, regardless of religious, ethnic, or social ideology.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    Because the ships going forward were not even remotely a threat to Israel, its people, nor its ability to continue being an autonomous nation. The ships were carrying freakin' food, medicine, protective gear, and supplies to put roofs over the heads of a people surrounded by rabid paranoiacs who would attempt to divert and/or attack those who wish to assist others in dire need. Duh.



    Well, you might think that a rag-tag collection of humanitarian workers/aid is some kind of massive threat to the autonomy of a powerful nation-state (WITH FREAKIN' NUKES I might add), but as far as I'm concerned you'd be entirely incorrect in that nutty assumption.

    And before anyone saddles up for the YOU HATE J00Z!~! posse, it's important to know that for decades I've been squarely behind Israel in its attempts to create a safe haven for its people. I'm a Polack. My grandparents were dragged out of their beds and massacred just like the Jews were. My aunts and uncles ended up in Nazi concentration camps just like the Jews did. I'm no Jew hater.

    I am, however, able to recognize when the oppressed become oppressors. And I will condemn that forever, regardless of religious, ethnic, or social ideology.
    You have to remember that Israel endured 7000 rocket attacks, which were smuggled thru this route, Israel by right should visually verify what is being shipped, that's all it wanted to do. Running a Naval Blockade isn't a good idea regardless what century we are in or what country is doing the Naval Blockade.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    They had indeed. I read some pretty scary warnings myself



    What exactly did you think these people were carrying? This makes it sound like you believe that Israel believed it was in for a fight. Such beliefs frequently create the situation, one way or another.


    Then why have I seen pictures of Israeli approaching boats by boat? I stay by what I said. Descending from the sky would have scared the hell out of me. I think they had every reason to believe they were under attack particularly when this was done in International waters - no not particularly because it was in International waters, it would have been extremely scary anyway, but it is worse because it was.
    Usually when there is a ship to ship boarding party, it is usually agreed to before hand by both parties. Bringing two ships into close proximity of each other not knowing what is on board is very risky, and leaves the inspecting ship at great risk. The helo insertion and how it approached the ship is up to speculation, was the helo's exchaust pointed in a upward position as to reduce noise or was it in the normal position which would have given the passsengers plenty of warning. Not to mention the Israelie navy gave plenty of warning what it's intentions were.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    You have to remember that Israel endured 7000 rocket attacks, which were smuggled thru this route
    And why do you suppose those rocket attacks happened? Because the Palestinians weren't being fenced in by Israelis, weren't denied basic human necessities by Israelis such as food and water, weren't forced out of their homes by Israelis so Israelis could "reclaim" their so-called lands? You think Palestinians picked a fight with a sovereign nation because they didn't have anything else to do that day?

    Sorry, but I don't buy it, and the rest of the world is rapidly waking up to the reality that Israeli has become an unrepentant bully in its neighborhood. I can no longer support their antagonistic, aggressively Zionist view of the world. They're simply wrong, IMO.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    And why do you suppose those rocket attacks happened? Because the Palestinians weren't being fenced in by Israelis, weren't denied basic human necessities by Israelis such as food and water, weren't forced out of their homes by Israelis so Israelis could "reclaim" their so-called lands? You think Palestinians picked a fight with a sovereign nation because they didn't have anything else to do that day?

    Sorry, but I don't buy it, and the rest of the world is rapidly waking up to the reality that Israeli has become an unrepentant bully in its neighborhood. I can no longer support their antagonistic, aggressively Zionist view of the world. They're simply wrong, IMO.
    The only ones surpressing the Palistineans currently is Hamas who is at war with Israel. fencing was built to keep the bombers out. The ones who wish to be engage in am pertual state of war, this will happen. Israel was willing to give 90 percent of the Palistean demands during the Clinton peace negoiations but, Arafat refused. That said the Palistean people have been kicked from Jordan, Eygpt, Syria, put Lebanon into a civil war for a decade and destroyed that country, perhaps you can understand why Israel does what it does. BTW Palistine isn't and never was a sovereign nation nor was it ever was through it's entire history. The Palistean people and their orgins are from the Greek Isles.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    First let me address the parts you made bold:

    -2a: The aid ships made no threat or use of force against Israel's sovereignty. International waters are not part of Israel's sovereignty. Neither is Gaza's coast. They just control it. While rejecting the notion that they are still the Occupying Power in Gaza.
    Uh, they declared their intention to violate an Israeli blockade to enter Israel's territorial water in order to unload goods in violation of Israeli law. I'm not sure how you conclude that's not a threat to their sovereignty.

    -2d: The ships intent was to bring humanitarian aid to a place where a humanitarian crisis exists. Obviously this upsets you, which is why you would even consider such a relief mission as propaganda. It didn't become propaganda until Israel broke international law and boarding a ship it had no authority to board.
    Right. Well, there's no point in debating you any further on this.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    Because the ships going forward were not even remotely a threat to Israel, its people, nor its ability to continue being an autonomous nation. The ships were carrying freakin' food, medicine, protective gear, and supplies to put roofs over the heads of a people surrounded by rabid paranoiacs who would attempt to divert and/or attack those who wish to assist others in dire need. Duh.

    Well, you might think that a rag-tag collection of humanitarian workers/aid is some kind of massive threat to the autonomy of a powerful nation-state (WITH FREAKIN' NUKES I might add), but as far as I'm concerned you'd be entirely incorrect in that nutty assumption.
    Guess what? Neither you nor I get to decide whether this was a threat to their sovereignty, so it doesn't really matter whether you think it's nutty or not.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    I never stated anything about CLOSE ties, I said links therefor google it not hard to find, that way you can judge for yourself and we won't get into a debate about who links are valid or not valid.
    many on your side of the debate are insisting there are close ties to al qaeda
    but none of you are able to post anything resembling evidence of that alleged connection
    if that portion of your argument is found to be made up, then why should we find the balance of your arguments in support of israeli actions credible
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    many on your side of the debate are insisting there are close ties to al qaeda
    but none of you are able to post anything resembling evidence of that alleged connection
    if that portion of your argument is found to be made up, then why should we find the balance of your arguments in support of israeli actions credible
    As I posted earlier, (post #771) apparently these "humanitarian" vessels were carrying a cache of bulletproof vests, night-vision goggles as well as gas masks. A group of 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were however carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash.

    Frankly, this is just SOP for groups like this. Under the guise of "humanitarianism", they attempt to sneak it things that could only really be used for warlike purposes. Either way, for them it is a victory, if the shipment gets through, they get their materials, if it gets stopped as it did (and should have been) then they get a PR victory.

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