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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    If we assume (as newspapers report) that it has happened in international waters, do you think that the israeli commando had the right to board these ships?

    And, second question, let's also assume that the deads are not Israeli (that's also very likely, but newspapers have to confirm that), don't you think that the use of force (10 killed apparently) is totally out of proportion with the danger caused by these ships (humanitarian ships loaded with wheelchairs and food, with several European MEP and apparently some guys who had knives)?
    If this was the case then why did the flotilla resist, this would be a act of aggression. Any country would have done the same thing, to have a naval blockade against a country which it is currently under a state of war with. This flotilla was lucky that all ships weren't sunk, then the survivors plucked from the water. A Naval blockade is to insure that weapons weren't being smuggled through under the guise of humanitarian aide. Lets not forget the wolf packs of WW2 in the North Atlantic and the Cuban crisis to cite recent examples of Naval Blockades.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You're either misreading your own links or are being deliberately disingenuous.

    You quote Art. 17, which covers the right of "innocent passage" and Art. 18 which defines passage, and leave it at that as if you've proven your case. Yet you leave out Art. 19, which actually defines "innocent passage":



    It's obvious that these ships are not covered under the rights of innocent passage, meaning that your inclusion of Art. 17 and 18 and exclusion of Art. 19 either stems from ignorance of the law or a deliberate attempt to hide the truth.
    First let me address the parts you made bold:

    -2a: The aid ships made no threat or use of force against Israel's sovereignty. International waters are not part of Israel's sovereignty. Neither is Gaza's coast. They just control it. While rejecting the notion that they are still the Occupying Power in Gaza.
    -2d: The ships intent was to bring humanitarian aid to a place where a humanitarian crisis exists. Obviously this upsets you, which is why you would even consider such a relief mission as propaganda. It didn't become propaganda until Israel broke international law and boarding a ship it had no authority to board.
    -2g: The ship was headed to Gaza's coast, not Israel's. Humanitarian aid to Gaza does not break any of Gaza's customs. Just Israel's illegal blockade on Gaza. You'll notice the law is clear when it refers to the coastal State, and not the other coastal State that happens to occupy it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Next, you quote a section that deals with Merchant and Government ships entering waters for an economic purpose. That's inapplicable here, but even if it were, you're still wrong for several reasons. First, that language explicitly allows for arrest and investigation where there is an alleged crime that would affect the state, as is the case here. Second, the text you bolded is entirely irrelevant.



    First, the ship was not boarded in the territorial sea, so this is not applicable. Even if we pretended it were, this only applies where the crime being investigated occurred before the ship entered the place where it was boarded. Since the crime in question was a violation of Israeli rules on shipments to Gaza, that's not applicable.

    In short, nothing you've said here offers any support for your claims, even if Israel were a signatory to this convention.

    (Fun fact: Guess who else isn't a signatory? Turkey!)
    Israel and Turkey do not have to be signatories to a convention to be binded by that convention. I'm sure you have heard of customary international law well before this incident.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    So what exactly did the Israeli commandos hope to accomplish with paintball guns? Some owies?

    If they had no "deadly intent," why board the humanitarian ships at all? If their intent was just to "dissuade" those on a humanitarian mission by driving them into retreat with paintballs or the like, they coulda just, y'know, lobbed water balloons at them from afar. Why initiate a forceful attempt to board?

    ...to prevent the ship from continuing forward. I'm not sure why that's so implausible.

    I think the bottom line here is, we're still not entirely clear on the chain of events. Still, given the long-term attempts by Israel to punish/marginalize/ discriminate against those along the Gaza strip, I'm not particularly inclined to give Israel a pass.

    In fact, far from it.
    Which might be contributing to your refusal to recognize a perfectly rational reason for boarding the ship.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnMacCool View Post
    Free Gaza Movement (freegazaorg) on Twitter

    Apparently Turks have stormed the Israeli embassy.
    and do you have no objections with this?

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I provided two specific examples where states exercised authority outside of their own territorial waters, examples that have not been challenged in the International Court of Justice, much less overturned. You have yet to provide any evidence that states cannot inspect vessels in international waters. That is not surprising, because the San Remo Memorandum, Law of the Sea Convention, and customary international law do not prohibit such inspections.
    You provided two examples that are not analogous with the incident we are discussing in this thread. Had the US and UK boarded humanitarian vessels on a relief effort, then you may have a point. The US and UK boarded boats that were smuggling narcotics (permissible according to article 108). Come back when you have an appropriate analogy.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    First let me address the parts you made bold:

    -2a: The aid ships made no threat or use of force against Israel's sovereignty. International waters are not part of Israel's sovereignty. Neither is Gaza's coast. They just control it. While rejecting the notion that they are still the Occupying Power in Gaza.
    -2d: The ships intent was to bring humanitarian aid to a place where a humanitarian crisis exists. Obviously this upsets you, which is why you would even consider such a relief mission as propaganda. It didn't become propaganda until Israel broke international law and boarding a ship it had no authority to board.
    -2g: The ship was headed to Gaza's coast, not Israel's. Humanitarian aid to Gaza does not break any of Gaza's customs. Just Israel's illegal blockade on Gaza. You'll notice the law is clear when it refers to the coastal State, and not the other coastal State that happens to occupy it.


    Israel and Turkey do not have to be signatories to a convention to be binded by that convention. I'm sure you have heard of customary international law well before this incident.
    Isreal is currently in a state of war with Hamas who currently rules Gaza and what sense would be to blockade Israels own coast, weapons are known to be smuggled through Gaza's ports. The purpose of this naval blockade is to stop arms being shipped to Isreals enemies, and Isreal I am sure is not going to take the word of this Flotilla's organizers who have links to Hamas and Al Queda that no arms are being shipped, this would be foolish.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    Isreal is currently in a state of war with Hamas who currently rules Gaza and what sense would be to blockade Israels own coast, weapons are known to be smuggled through Gaza's ports. The purpose of this naval blockade is to stop arms being shipped to Isreals enemies, and Isreal I am sure is not going to take the word of this Flotilla's organizers who have links to Hamas and Al Queda that no arms are being shipped, this would be foolish.
    here is that same assertion, never supported by evidence
    how about a link to the evidence showing the close ties to al qaeda and the "flotilla's organizers"
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Israel wasn't going to board these ships if this flotilla didn't attempt to run the blockade but, considering that the flotilla didn't head the orders of the Isaelie navy, then this would be a act of aggression and Israel being in a state of war, had every right to board or sink the flotilla.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    You provided two examples that are not analogous with the incident we are discussing in this thread. Had the US and UK boarded humanitarian vessels on a relief effort, then you may have a point. The US and UK boarded boats that were smuggling narcotics (permissible according to article 108). Come back when you have an appropriate analogy.
    There is nothing in international law that precludes inspections of such vessels in international waters. The absence of such provisions in international law is sufficient to negate the spurious claims earlier in this thread that ships cannot be boarded and inspected in international waters. Israel's seeking to board and inspect the flotilla's ships to ensure that weapons were not being smuggled into the Gaza Strip is compatible with international law. Circumstances of other boardings do not have to be identical. The basis for doing so has to be reasonable. Illicit weapons smuggling is a reasonable basis. The Proliferation Security Initiative, a 17-nation effort, authorizes the boarding of ships suspected of carrying WMD, their delivery systems, or related materials. Furthermore, the PSI may be expanded to include other trafficking activities.

    As Israel has repeatedly been victimized by rockets fired from the Gaza Strip, Israel has a critical interest in stopping the smuggling of such weapons into the Gaza Strip and, under international law, can proceed to board vessels suspected of carrying such weapons or their components, even if such vessels are in international waters.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    here is that same assertion, never supported by evidence
    how about a link to the evidence showing the close ties to al qaeda and the "flotilla's organizers"
    I never stated anything about CLOSE ties, I said links therefor google it not hard to find, that way you can judge for yourself and we won't get into a debate about who links are valid or not valid.

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