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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I actually like the name of the boat the MV Rachael Corrie that will piss off the Israelis a little, since it's the name of an American that was killed by bulldozers.
    Rachel Corrie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Oh I do love irony that the new ship is named after someone they killed while protesting them tearing down houses, and now the ship is going to tear down a blockade.


    Here is a old interview that she had done during her stay in the middle east.




    She was murdered on March 16th, 2003 while protesting Israel who was tearing down houses that didn't belong to them.
    Last edited by RyrineaHaruno; 06-01-10 at 07:45 PM.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Why? I am sure they do not. The Irish are a stubborn bunch once they have decided on something.
    Heh. Don't I know it.

    Maybe there are just going to be boat after boat after boat.

    I do not think there will be any more killings.
    I certainly hope not. As long as they don't violently resist, they should be okay. My comment was more a figure of speech than anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyrineaHaruno View Post
    I actually like the name of the boat the MV Rachael Corrie that will piss off the Israelis a little, since it the name of an American that was killed by bulldozers.
    Rachel Corrie - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Oh I do love irony that the new ship is named after someone they killed while protesting them tearing down houses, and now the ship is going to tear down a blockade.
    Yeah, that is ironic indeed.
    "Yes, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?".- Northern Irish joke

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Latest development:

    Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu decided Tuesday that Israel will not prosecute or continue to hold the participants it captured from the Gaza protest flotilla, despite earlier indications from Israel that some of those who attacked the Israeli soldiers boarding the ships will be prosecuted.
    All flotilla activists to be deported

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    The person on the news said that on one of the 'non violent' ships which he was on, people decided to sit in passive resistance. He said they were beaten. This was an elderly American man. He said his friend was beaten black and blue and was in hospital but the Israeli's were letting no one see him because they did not want people to see the state he was in.

    Now I watched this man on tonight's BBC news and I am sure he was being completely honest as to what he knows.
    Then there's no point in me trying to debate with you any more. If you've made your mind up based on nothing but the bare allegations of one of the involved parties, then I can't expect you to be open-minded about anything else.

    I know you do not believe in civil disobedience and passive resistance and I do. Violence against non violence is violence.
    How is attacking a group of soldiers "passive resistance"?

    Again, I don't have a problem with the actions of the other boats. I have a problem with the people who attacked the soldiers and then cried when they lost.

    The boat where there was violence was the first boat and the largest. Yes, people fought the Israelis but the Israelis were also detonating things to get people's attention away from the people parachuting in. Likely they felt under attack. If reports of attempted lynchings are accurate then there is no excuse for that. That is criminal activity, no excuses available. We will need to wait and see.

    The situation is still far from clear.
    And yet you've made up your mind that these soldiers beat an unarmed elderly man who was offering no resistance.

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    About the knives: yes of course, as I've explained kitchen usually contain knives

    About the bats & pipes: I don't know what they've used exactly but if it is just pipes, then yes too

    About catapults: what kind of catapult? Can you show me a picture/video where I could see one?

    About slingshots: are you considering that as a weapon?!?
    Israeli Gaza aid flotilla raid: British families face anxious wait for news | Mail Online

    If you believe that it was chance that they happened to have these things handy to fight back, then we'll again have to agree to disagree.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post


    Israeli Gaza aid flotilla raid: British families face anxious wait for news | Mail Online

    If you believe that it was chance that they happened to have these things handy to fight back, then we'll again have to agree to disagree.
    I'll give you that: at least one of the knives is clearly not a simple kitchen knife, and yes there were slingshots with stones. So it is quite obvious that some of them had planned to resist the boarding.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    You are grasping at straws don. I have provided evidence that humanitarian vessel are exempt from attack. I have provided evidence that it is customary international law for Israel to abide by the rules of innocent passage in international waters.

    You are repeatedly stating Israel had the right to inspect a ship in international waters, well outside its jurisdiction. You provide no cite for this. No piece of international law that grants power for Israel to exercise authority outside its jurisdiction. I am sorry, but you need a better grasp on international law.
    You have not. Instead, the context you have selectively excluded e.g., the language I cited, demonstrates otherwise. Moreover, precedents established by UK and U.S. boarding of ships suspected of carrying narcotics in international waters--precedents that have not been overturned--demonstrates the reality that visits/inspections of ships except in a very limited number of circumstances is perimissible under international law. Furthermore, Japan's move to grant authority to its Coast Guard to board North Korean vessels in international waters illustrates that Japan also understands international law to permit such inspections. If the position you argue for were correct, none of those precedents would stand, as they would have been challenged and reversed, and Japan would almost certainly not be working to grant its Coast Guard authority to board North Korean ships in international waters.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    You're either misreading your own links or are being deliberately disingenuous.

    You quote Art. 17, which covers the right of "innocent passage" and Art. 18 which defines passage, and leave it at that as if you've proven your case. Yet you leave out Art. 19, which actually defines "innocent passage":

    1. Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State. Such passage shall take place in conformity with this Convention and with other rules of international law.

    2. Passage of a foreign ship shall be considered to be prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal State if in the territorial sea it engages in any of the following activities:

    (a) any threat or use of force against the sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence of the coastal State,
    or in any other manner in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the Charter of the United Nations;

    (b) any exercise or practice with weapons of any kind;

    (c) any act aimed at collecting information to the prejudice of the defence or security of the coastal State;

    (d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State;

    (e) the launching, landing or taking on board of any aircraft;

    (f) the launching, landing or taking on board of any military device;

    (g) the loading or unloading of any commodity, currency or person contrary to the customs, fiscal, immigration or sanitary laws and regulations of the coastal State;
    It's obvious that these ships are not covered under the rights of innocent passage, meaning that your inclusion of Art. 17 and 18 and exclusion of Art. 19 either stems from ignorance of the law or a deliberate attempt to hide the truth.

    Next, you quote a section that deals with Merchant and Government ships entering waters for an economic purpose. That's inapplicable here, but even if it were, you're still wrong for several reasons. First, that language explicitly allows for arrest and investigation where there is an alleged crime that would affect the state, as is the case here. Second, the text you bolded is entirely irrelevant.

    the coastal State may not take any steps on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with any crime committed before the ship entered the territorial sea, if the ship, proceeding from a foreign port, is only passing through the territorial sea without entering internal waters.
    First, the ship was not boarded in the territorial sea, so this is not applicable. Even if we pretended it were, this only applies where the crime being investigated occurred before the ship entered the place where it was boarded. Since the crime in question was a violation of Israeli rules on shipments to Gaza, that's not applicable.

    In short, nothing you've said here offers any support for your claims, even if Israel were a signatory to this convention.

    (Fun fact: Guess who else isn't a signatory? Turkey!)
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    You have not. Instead, the context you have selectively excluded e.g., the language I cited, demonstrates otherwise. Moreover, precedents established by UK and U.S. boarding of ships suspected of carrying narcotics in international waters--precedents that have not been overturned--demonstrates the reality that visits/inspections of ships except in a very limited number of circumstances is perimissible under international law. Furthermore, Japan's move to grant authority to its Coast Guard to board North Korean vessels in international waters illustrates that Japan also understands international law to permit such inspections. If the position you argue for were correct, none of those precedents would stand, as they would have been challenged and reversed, and Japan would almost certainly not be working to grant its Coast Guard authority to board North Korean ships in international waters.
    Those are not precedents because they are not analagous. The US and UK board ships because they have reasonable suspicion they are carrying illicit narcotics, which is permissible under under the Laws of Sea. Israel boarded a humanitarian ship on a relief mission where no reasonable suspicion of narcotics is plausible. For it to be precedent, the flotilla would have to have been carrying drugs instead of humanitarian aid.

    Nice try though. You have still yet to provide any evidence that a State is permitted to exercise authority outside its territorial jurisdiction.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Those are not precedents because they are not analagous. The US and UK board ships because they have reasonable suspicion they are carrying illicit narcotics, which is permissible under under the Laws of Sea. Israel boarded a humanitarian ship on a relief mission where no reasonable suspicion of narcotics is plausible. For it to be precedent, the flotilla would have to have been carrying drugs instead of humanitarian aid.

    Nice try though. You have still yet to provide any evidence that a State is permitted to exercise authority outside its territorial jurisdiction.
    I provided two specific examples where states exercised authority outside of their own territorial waters, examples that have not been challenged in the International Court of Justice, much less overturned. You have yet to provide any evidence that states cannot inspect vessels in international waters. That is not surprising, because the San Remo Memorandum, Law of the Sea Convention, and customary international law do not prohibit such inspections.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Sending in commandos with painball guns and flash grenades doesn't demonstrate deadly intent either.
    So what exactly did the Israeli commandos hope to accomplish with paintball guns? Some owies?

    If they had no "deadly intent," why board the humanitarian ships at all? If their intent was just to "dissuade" those on a humanitarian mission by driving them into retreat with paintballs or the like, they coulda just, y'know, lobbed water balloons at them from afar. Why initiate a forceful attempt to board?



    I think the bottom line here is, we're still not entirely clear on the chain of events. Still, given the long-term attempts by Israel to punish/marginalize/ discriminate against those along the Gaza strip, I'm not particularly inclined to give Israel a pass.

    In fact, far from it.
    Last edited by Glinda; 06-01-10 at 09:04 PM.

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