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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And those riots lasted days or weeks, with hundreds of police officers being hurt and hundreds of millions of euros in property damage being inflicted. They also recur every few years.

    You're holding this up as a model of success?
    Compared to this raid? Since there were no casualties, yes, of course it is a great success.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I don't really care why they have the blockade, as it's irrelevant to the fact that the activists on these ships did what they did in the hopes of provoking a conflict like this. This could very easily have been avoided.
    What are you saying? I agree with you, they wanted to create an incident.



    1) There's a reason why police officers are not trained to shoot for knees or arms, but rather for the chest.
    How many bullets does it take to kill someone if you aim at the chest? Unless you hit the heart or you use dum-dum ammunitions, I don't think you can kill someone on the spot.


    2) So after the first 5 or 10 commandos had dropped and the situation had gone to ****, the others should have just abandoned them there rather than continuing down in order to help them?
    They could have jumped overboard


    3) The soldiers did use plenty of non-lethal methods to subdue these people, which is why there aren't 50+ dead
    10-20 deads is still a lot


    4) You know that when the soldiers boarded the boat, they were armed with paintball guns and under orders not to use anything more lethal, correct?
    Then where did the firearms come from?

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Compared to this raid? Since there were no casualties, yes, of course it is a great success.

    Simply untrue.


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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    From Reuters:

    The other issue cited by a TV analyst is quite disturbing. If, in fact it is true, it indicates that at least some of the individuals on the ship had deadly intent.
    I dont doubt that for a second. But, it works both ways. Sending in commando's rarely means 'lets sit down and discuss the issue at hand'. So lets not paint half the picture Don.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Simply untrue.


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    Check the facts

    * Arrests: 2,888
    * Deaths: 2 (Salah Gaham and Jean-Jacques Le Chenadec)
    * Police and firefighters injured: 126
    126 injured on the police/firefighters side, 2 guys killed by rioters, 2,888 arrests and no rioter killed. If human lives count in your opinion, then yes it is undiscutably a great success

    2005 civil unrest in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    No. Again and I'll say it real slow for you. I'm going by your posts and your positions. No assumptions are necessary.
    There are to reach your conclusion as they cannot be logically supported by the sum total of my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Now have you ever once admitted the Israeli side could be right in this. Again, no mind reading necessary.
    In the overall picture, I don't think there is a right side. Each side at one point has retaliated for actions taken against it, each side at one point has made aggressive actions against the other. The entirety of the conflict which stretches back to the creation of Israel has no "right" side anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Then prove it. Claiming it means nothing. Back it up.
    Look at the thread, there are well more people out for the outright defense of Israel and are for the outright defense of Palestine. Basically you're trying to backtrack now because you overstated something and can't back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Then you condemn them to die at the hands of their enemies. And you still want to pretend you are neutral?
    I condemn them to nothing. It's their choices and their actions which led them to this spot; not mine. Don't try to pin this on me just because I don't want to pay for it anymore. My money shouldn't go to Israel, they're a big boy state and can take care of themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    So, you still have zero examples of Isrealis saying they can do anything they want because the US will back them which was your claim. Got it.
    I've given you plenty, you just don't want to acknowledge it. But we'll really see how much of an issue this is if Israel and Turkey get into it. We don't have a mutual defense treaty with Israel, but we do with Turkey. Meaning that if Turkey is ever attacked, we are to come to its defense. We'll see what happens should Israel and Turkey get into a tiff. My prediction is that we'll not honor our treaty with Turkey and try our damnedest not to get drawn in to this specific conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    And there are no sanctions on the Palestinians by the UN when terrorists blow up a night club or religous center. Do you have any evidence of Israel intending civilian deaths and not targeting terrorists? Any? Any at all? Because I have dozens of examples of Palestinian terrorists targetiong speciufically Israeli citiziens.

    You want to compare the Israeli army to Palestinian terrorists, be my guest.
    What are you going to sanction against? Palestine is already suffering greatly. They have little materials to sustain life, they're penned into areas, constantly watched and policed by another country, their land is continually threatened and occasionally taken. What more is there? We can levy sanction after sanction, but they'll do no good as they are already suffering greater than any sanction could do because of the actions of Israel. Actions Israel is not held responsible for.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    lol You made the claim genius. I'm still waiting for ANY example of it that you can post. And you keep ducking providing that example to back your claim.
    You've gotten them and more.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Are you incabpable of reading your own posts? YOU said we should never get involved unless someone directly attacks us. Germany did NOT attack us. Japan did. So by your warped reasoning, we should never have attacked Germany since they never attacked us.

    And instead of admitting your mistake, you tried to change your argument to include attacks on allies which is humorous since Israel IS our ally.

    Please read your own posts next time.
    Everything I wrote was true. We should try to stay out of conflicts which do not concern us. However, in WW II in order for us to have entered the war, the Axis powers directly attacked us which drew us into conflict with the Axis. That's the reality of history. You can like it or not, but it doesn't change what happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Still not telling the truth I see.

    From your own post:



    So you went from claiming you don't support either side to now denying you never said that. Your dishonesty is just more transparent in every post.
    Those two do not contradict each other, you're just scraping for dirt instead of entering into debate. I haven't pretended that I didn't choose a side, that is true. I do not support either side. It's a simple statement any human should be able to understand.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Compared to this raid? Since there were no casualties, yes, of course it is a great success.
    I strongly disagree. First, there were some casualties. Second, you're saying that despite the fact that those riots caused millions of euros in damage, injured hundreds of police officers (and many more rioters), and are repeated almost every year, the government policy is a success simply because there are only a small handful of people who are actually killed? If I were someone whose car got torched and father got put into a coma, I'm pretty sure I'd be kind of pissed despite the fact that nobody I knew was actually killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    What are you saying? I agree with you, they wanted to create an incident.
    Which is why I have little sympathy for them. If you try to kick a tiger in the balls because you think it's being mean to a gazelle, you've got a pretty good chance of getting your ass chewed up.

    How many bullets does it take to kill someone if you aim at the chest? Unless you hit the heart or you use dum-dum ammunitions, I don't think you can kill someone on the spot.
    Yes you can, but I'm still not sure how that's relevant. Police officers are always trained to shoot for the chest rather than the extremities because shooting for an extremity is incredibly risky and unlikely to serve the actual purpose, which is to stop the attack.

    They could have jumped overboard
    I think that our views on what's reasonable are too far apart to be reconciled. I can't imagine anyone looking at their colleague getting stomped by a crowd and saying "well, I better not go down there and help. They can probably just make it to the edge and jump in the ocean and we'll all go on our merry way."

    10-20 deads is still a lot
    And a lot less than there would have been had the military not used restraint.

    Then where did the firearms come from?
    The soldiers were equipped with paintball guns, which they were told to use if necessary. They also had sidearms, but were instructed not to use them unless fired upon. According to reports, they were not used until an activist stole one away from a soldier in a pile and started firing at the soldiers.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by gunner View Post
    I dont doubt that for a second. But, it works both ways. Sending in commando's rarely means 'lets sit down and discuss the issue at hand'. So lets not paint half the picture Don.

    Paul
    Sending in commandos with painball guns and flash grenades doesn't demonstrate deadly intent either.

    There were exactly zero fatalities on the other five boats.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    An investigation will be important to addressing such issues.
    Not necessarily. It depends on it's orientation.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Barring mass refusal of the detainees to cooperate, it should probably take a relatively short time before Israel has identified those who have potential material knowledge and those who engaged in or were responsible, in some part, for the violence. .
    You come from the belief that Israel is in the right and some of the passengers are in the wrong.

    I believe that most of the passengers will be highly traumatised and that it is in no way to be expected they will trust or wish to speak to the Israeli's. I wish some third party was dealing with this. Are you saying that Israel can keep our people indefinitely without trial?

    The US kept one of our men in Guantanimo for several years. They could get no information from him because he was completely innocent. Eventually they let him go because they believed he worked for MI5 and he was so well trained it was impossible to get any information from him.

    Given what these people have been through, I would prefer they were with family and friends. I certainly will be writing to my MP soon if there is any likelihood of keeping British people indefinitely.
    Last edited by alexa; 06-01-10 at 05:53 PM.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Sending in commandos with painball guns and flash grenades doesn't demonstrate deadly intent either.

    There were exactly zero fatalities on the other five boats.
    But people have complained about being 'roughed up' on them when they tried passive resistence.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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