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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

  1. #701
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    they do, however they are not going to allow things that could have a dual purpose as a weapon as well.


    j-mac
    like macaronis, coffee, chocolate or shampoo?

    bub

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    like macaronis, coffee, chocolate or shampoo?

    bub
    Israel has just allowed and transferred into Gaza the entire of the ship's humanitarian aid cargo, which, mind you, is no more than two thirds of what Israel enters into the Gaza Strip weekly.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Watch these videos
    YouTube - Close-Up Footage of Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking IDF Soldiers
    YouTube - Demonstrators Use Violence Against Israeli Navy Soldiers Attempting to Board Ship
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2duPV9MQIc&NR=1

    These activists went a little over-board... yet it appears they were just trying to protect their ship. I can see why the Israeli soldiers felt they needed to use deadly force, but then again should they have tried to storm the ship in the first place? The blockade on Gaza sounds like it is being devastating on the area, but Hamas continues to harass Israel. Then again there are more people living in Gaza than just Hamas soldiers... what about them?

    I guess I don't know enough about the situation there to have an opinion on this one.
    Last edited by Jucon; 06-01-10 at 05:06 PM.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Of course they wanted to create an incident, and they succeeded.

    As for Israel offering to deliver the food...then why don't they simply end the blockade? Why do they still prevent things like pasta, shampoo, coffee or chocolate to enter Gaza? That's what they should have done: check what enters Gaza but let everything enter Gaza, except weapons.
    I don't really care why they have the blockade, as it's irrelevant to the fact that the activists on these ships did what they did in the hopes of provoking a conflict like this. This could very easily have been avoided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana XV View Post
    I'd appreciate if you would not put words in my mouth. I've never said anything of the sort. What I've actually said in terms of personal opinion is that so far I don't really believe any of the accounts from either side and that everyone is looking pretty bad in my eyes.
    I apologize for implying that that's what you said. I was mostly trying to explain why I thought that any such account should be looked at closely.

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    According to what I've read, the people on the boats had no firearms, one of them just stole a single pistol from an IDF commando. Killing this single guy would have been justified when he started shooting at the IDF soldiers.

    The ones with knives and rods could have been neutralized with shots in the knees or something like that, and the commando should have retreated immediately instead of keeping on landing on the ship while they knew that the situation was out of control (as we see on the videos)

    I believed highly trained soldiers such as these commandos were taught how to neutralize people without killing them!
    1) There's a reason why police officers are not trained to shoot for knees or arms, but rather for the chest.
    2) So after the first 5 or 10 commandos had dropped and the situation had gone to ****, the others should have just abandoned them there rather than continuing down in order to help them?
    3) The soldiers did use plenty of non-lethal methods to subdue these people, which is why there aren't 50+ dead
    4) You know that when the soldiers boarded the boat, they were armed with paintball guns and under orders not to use anything more lethal, correct?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Well I just compare with the way we do handle riots in Europe.

    A few years ago there were huge riots in Paris with thousands of rioters armed with clubs, they burnt 1,000 or 2,000 cars and even wounded several policemen. The French police charged several times, and I've never heard that they have killed or even wounded one of these rioters with gunfire.

    That shows that you can handle these situations without killing so many people.
    Policemen are always wounded in riots.
    This was no ****ing riot, it was a ****ing lynch and an attempt to kill the soldiers which was almost a success due to the soldiers' used level of force's limiting by the Israeli purity of arms.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 06-01-10 at 05:07 PM.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Well I just compare with the way we do handle riots in Europe.

    A few years ago there were huge riots in Paris with thousands of rioters armed with clubs, they burnt 1,000 or 2,000 cars and even wounded several policemen. The French police charged several times, and I've never heard that they have killed or even wounded one of these rioters with gunfire.

    That shows that you can handle these situations without killing so many people.
    And those riots lasted days or weeks, with hundreds of police officers being hurt and hundreds of millions of euros in property damage being inflicted. They also recur every few years.

    You're holding this up as a model of success?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I am in agreement that videos I have seen look like serious violent fighting. I just don't know yet why it started.
    An investigation will be important to addressing such issues.

    How long is Israel allowed to hold them without trial? How will Israel be able to know that they 'clearly' lack material knowledge? When will their families be able to speak to them?
    Barring mass refusal of the detainees to cooperate, it should probably take a relatively short time before Israel has identified those who have potential material knowledge and those who engaged in or were responsible, in some part, for the violence. Mass refusal to cooperate with the investigation could delay the process. Already, the International Red Cross has been given access to the detainees.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I don't really care why they have the blockade, as it's irrelevant to the fact that the activists on these ships did what they did in the hopes of provoking a conflict like this. This could very easily have been avoided.



    I apologize for implying that that's what you said. I was mostly trying to explain why I thought that any such account should be looked at closely.



    1) There's a reason why police officers are not trained to shoot for knees or arms, but rather for the chest.
    2) So after the first 5 or 10 commandos had dropped and the situation had gone to ****, the others should have just abandoned them there rather than continuing down in order to help them?
    3) The soldiers did use plenty of non-lethal methods to subdue these people, which is why there aren't 50+ dead
    4) You know that when the soldiers boarded the boat, they were armed with paintball guns and under orders not to use anything more lethal, correct?
    They didn't even use the ****ing paintball guns until very late into the battle, they came there thinking they're going to easily stop a ship of some European and Turkish demonstrators and then go back home, they knew that this was an attempt to provoke an Israeli response for PR purposes and were hence instructed not to use any level of force at all unless absolutely necessary, not even their paintball guns.
    One of the soldiers has only drawn his paintball gun when he broke free from a lynch (where he got his hand broken by metal rods' hits from the crowd), and even then he has aimed for the legs.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So you're just going by assumption then eh? K.
    No. Again and I'll say it real slow for you. I'm going by your posts and your positions. No assumptions are necessary.

    I've never completely defended Palestine nor said that they were 100% innocent. Maybe that's those assumptions that really throw off your mind reading skills.
    Now have you ever once admitted the Israeli side could be right in this. Again, no mind reading necessary.

    There aren't as many. Try reading. I didn't say there were none. Again with your assumptions. You're not doing a great job with them.
    Then prove it. Claiming it means nothing. Back it up.

    Nope, but they can't fight as well without the tremendous support they get from us. I'd rather the whole lot of them just drop this issue once and for all. But that's not going to happen any time soon. As such, my position is that we wipe our hands of the matter. No use getting drug into some dumb conflict that seemingly never ends. We have enough of that in Iraq; don't need more.
    Then you condemn them to die at the hands of their enemies. And you still want to pretend you are neutral?

    The bombing of civilian targets such as hotels and apartment complexes would usually contain with it international condemnation along with appropriate sanctions. Those sanctions never occur. The seizing of property of the Palestinian people and usurpation of more and more land would come with the same consequences, yet no consequences are born out. The occupation of lands, the sequestering of soldiers in houses kicking the families out, the caging in of an entire people would all normally carry with it several negative consequences. Yet the only one's realized are those which are written condemnation. There is no actual sanction or other economic/financial punishment handed down. This is in part due to American backing and our control of several of the international bodies.
    So, you still have zero examples of Isrealis saying they can do anything they want because the US will back them which was your claim. Got it.

    And there are no sanctions on the Palestinians by the UN when terrorists blow up a night club or religous center. Do you have any evidence of Israel intending civilian deaths and not targeting terrorists? Any? Any at all? Because I have dozens of examples of Palestinian terrorists targetiong speciufically Israeli citiziens.

    You want to compare the Israeli army to Palestinian terrorists, be my guest.

    [quote]I ran from nothing. You've merely not presented a clear enough argument or demonstrated your own position. I've explained everything to you clearly, I can't help it if you want to stick your head in the sand.[p/quote]

    lol You made the claim genius. I'm still waiting for ANY example of it that you can post. And you keep ducking providing that example to back your claim.

    The Axis alliance did not attack us? Japan did not bomb Pearl Harbor? Is this really going to be your defense? It's pretty pathetic if so.
    Are you incabpable of reading your own posts? YOU said we should never get involved unless someone directly attacks us. Germany did NOT attack us. Japan did. So by your warped reasoning, we should never have attacked Germany since they never attacked us.

    And instead of admitting your mistake, you tried to change your argument to include attacks on allies which is humorous since Israel IS our ally.

    Please read your own posts next time.

    I haven't pretended that I didn't choose a side. More poor assumption on your part. You should maybe stop it.
    Still not telling the truth I see.

    From your own post:

    I don't support either side.
    So you went from claiming you don't support either side to now denying you never said that. Your dishonesty is just more transparent in every post.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Both of which come directly from your absolutely biased and completely judgemental stance of immedietely believing everything the other side is saying and thinking everything the Israeli side is saying is a lie. It is not a clear cut open and shut case in regards to the international waters thing and the boarding, as has been shown in this thread. Its not a clear cut case that it was obviously disproportionate, as simply looking at the totals does not give the full picture in any way shape or form of what happened. All of it is you coming from a starting point based on assumptions predicated off of zero save for your own biases and hatreds.
    Well then, the point of view I defend is the official point of view (it was disproportionate/unacceptable) of the following countries/organizations:

    Organization of the American States
    European Union
    Belgium
    Bulgaria
    France
    Germany
    Greece
    Ireland
    Portugal
    Spain
    Sweden
    United Kingdom
    Albania
    Iceland
    Norway
    Russia
    All the Arab states (list too long to copy)
    Bolivia
    Brazil
    Chile
    India
    Turkey
    ...

    and of course, all the other countries (with the only exception of the USA) condemn the Israeli raid and ask for investigations. Many of them also ask an immediate lift of the blockade.

    Glad to see you consider all these countries as "full of hate towards Israel".




    All I've seen of the "illegality" of it is a suggestion that a condemnation means its illegal and that its predicated off a notion that the blockaid is being done for reasons of punishing the Gaza people rather than for national security reasons, and if it was the latter it would not be illegal, and essentially its the U.N. guessing as to Israel's purposes primarily by a large number of countries who have strong biases against the state.
    Only Israel disputes the illegality of the blockade

    An occupying power is obliged to follow the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, which seeks to protect the civilian population.[17] The Security Council held in 1979 that the Fourth Convention applies in the territories captured by Israel in 1967, including Gaza. Israel, however, has never accepted that the convention should formally apply in the occupied territories, arguing that the conventions refer to occupied state sovereign territories. However it has said that it will be bound by their "humanitarian provisions".[17]
    2007








    Oh bull**** semantics Bub, but you know that, and its why your post here is a joke. Never specifically saying "Israel lied" does not mean you've not repeatedly, and continually, implied it through continually making every comment and post in this thread from the stand point that anything and everything Israel has said about this is not true...either through ignoring what they've said or stating something opposite of what Israel is saying as if your words are facts. You show that you give nothing but lip service to your bull**** line about there being "no more reason" to believe the IDF than the German MEP becasue every post you post is coming from the assumed starting point in line with the thinking of the German MEP and acting as if the German MEP's and others accounting of what happened, why it happened, how it happened, what they were carrying, etc are what actually did happen.

    You don't need to go "Israel is lying" and "the humanatarians are telling the truth" in specific, literal words to basically be saying those exact same things.
    I base my posts on what is agreed by both parts. I never said the people on board were not trying to create an incident or that they were not the ones who started using violence.

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