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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You keep saying this, but what are you basing it on?

    If a large group of people in Ohio tried to attack a group of fully equipped marines, I bet that the ratios of injured/killed would look similar. How on earth does that prove anything about whether the ratios are justified?
    According to what I've read, the people on the boats had no firearms, one of them just stole a single pistol from an IDF commando. Killing this single guy would have been justified when he started shooting at the IDF soldiers.

    The ones with knives and rods could have been neutralized with shots in the knees or something like that, and the commando should have retreated immediately instead of keeping on landing on the ship while they knew that the situation was out of control (as we see on the videos)

    I believed highly trained soldiers such as these commandos were taught how to neutralize people without killing them!

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    So how you going to find the weapons if you don't have things like the blockade in place? Your post makes no sense.


    j-mac
    ...then still call it a "blockade" but let the food enter, at least.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    From Reuters:

    That did not stop passengers broadcasting a globally viewed video clip that, ironically, helped Israel's case by showing a clutch of activists clubbing and stabbing two marines...

    Alon Ben-David, Defense analyst for Israel's Channel 10 television, noted that video footage appears to show marines thwarted an attempt by activists to tie one of the rappelling ropes to the deck, a major threat to the hovering helicopter.
    Note that Reuters didn't report that Israel had interpreted the video that showed the clubbing and stabbing of two marines. Reuters mentioned what the video showed. Hence, on the issue as to whether the Israelis were attacked with knives, the answer is that they were.

    The other issue cited by a TV analyst is quite disturbing. If, in fact it is true, it indicates that at least some of the individuals on the ship had deadly intent.

    As noted previously, the investigation will be crucial. Those on the ship who engaged in violence should be prosecuted. Until the facts have been established, only those who clearly lack material knowledge and those who had no role in the violence should be released. The remainder should be detained until the facts have been established, with innocent ones being released, and the others prosecuted appropriately.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Well every EU country, Turkey, the UN...everyone condemns Israel. It's a bit early and we still don't have the full story, but bottom line there are 10 to 20 deads and 36 wounded on one side and 5 wounded on the other side...it's impossible to justify so many casualties.
    So....essentially people who jump at the chance to belittle, insult, and talk down to Israel at every chance but are almost always ready to be on tippy toes about places like Iran.

    Again, color me surprised. I don't give a ****.

    Its not impossible to justify it. I can justify it immedietely if we're dealing in hypotheticals. A handful of IDF people and about 20 times more on the boats then them. At whatever point that they start attacking, in any fashion, I think its fully justified to use force and the goal at that point should be to have:

    1. As little causalities for your side as possible
    2. As much damage as is needed to cause those attacking you to stop

    I don't hold the IDF to any higher standard than I'd hold our military or any other military, or even law enforcement. Once they are being attacked I am absolutely fine with them defending themselves and if it takes a large number of casualties and injuries to get them to stop, so be it. And if the soldiers/law enforcement take few casualities or wounds then frankly they're DOING THEIR JOB.

    So yeah, not impossible in my mind at all. If they were severely outnumbered, and were being attacked, and stopped attacking once the far larger amount of people on the other side showed legitimate attempts at stopping then I would say it was justified if it was 50 dead on the "humanatarians" side and 0 wounded on the IDF side.

    However, we don't know the full situation yet and only have preliminary words from sources that have a vested interest in this. I won't make a full judgement until more of the facts are clearly out; but I'm not going to make such asinine and ridiculous statements that it's IMPOSSIBLE that what the Israeli's did was unjustified.

    The point is that these people were trying to bypass the blockade because they say it is illegal, they obviously did this to make Israel look bad, and they succeeded much more than they had hoped.
    And the point is it doesn't matter if they say it is illegal or not, the fact is its there, you know its going to be enforced, so you're an idiot for basically walking on top of a sleeping bear. You're doubly stupid if when the bear rouses up at your presense but seems content to let you walk around it you decide that no, by god, you're going to walk over that bear. And you get no real sympathy when the bear decides to maul your face because you decided to do something stupid.

    Yes, Israel looked bad. That doesn't make the "humanatarians" not look like ignorant douchebags.

    We don't know yet and I've said earlier in this thread that I understood Israel's security concerns. What I strongly condemn is the obviously disproportionate use of force and the boarding in international waters.
    Both of which come directly from your absolutely biased and completely judgemental stance of immedietely believing everything the other side is saying and thinking everything the Israeli side is saying is a lie. It is not a clear cut open and shut case in regards to the international waters thing and the boarding, as has been shown in this thread. Its not a clear cut case that it was obviously disproportionate, as simply looking at the totals does not give the full picture in any way shape or form of what happened. All of it is you coming from a starting point based on assumptions predicated off of zero save for your own biases and hatreds.

    According to the UN and the EU, yes
    All I've seen of the "illegality" of it is a suggestion that a condemnation means its illegal and that its predicated off a notion that the blockaid is being done for reasons of punishing the Gaza people rather than for national security reasons, and if it was the latter it would not be illegal, and essentially its the U.N. guessing as to Israel's purposes primarily by a large number of countries who have strong biases against the state.

    Not at such extend
    In your opinion, based off your unquestioning belief in what the "humanatarians" state, your biases against Israel, and your apparent inability to think rationally and honestly about this with such absolutes you keep spitting out.

    I strongly oppose the blockade, so I can't condemn attempts to bypass it. And I never said Israel lied, I just said there is no reason to believe the IDF more than the German MEP on board.
    Oh bull**** semantics Bub, but you know that, and its why your post here is a joke. Never specifically saying "Israel lied" does not mean you've not repeatedly, and continually, implied it through continually making every comment and post in this thread from the stand point that anything and everything Israel has said about this is not true...either through ignoring what they've said or stating something opposite of what Israel is saying as if your words are facts. You show that you give nothing but lip service to your bull**** line about there being "no more reason" to believe the IDF than the German MEP becasue every post you post is coming from the assumed starting point in line with the thinking of the German MEP and acting as if the German MEP's and others accounting of what happened, why it happened, how it happened, what they were carrying, etc are what actually did happen.

    You don't need to go "Israel is lying" and "the humanatarians are telling the truth" in specific, literal words to basically be saying those exact same things.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    According to what I've read, the people on the boats had no firearms, one of them just stole a single pistol from an IDF commando. Killing this single guy would have been justified when he started shooting at the IDF soldiers.

    The ones with knives and rods could have been neutralized with shots in the knees or something like that, and the commando should have retreated immediately instead of keeping on landing on the ship while they knew that the situation was out of control (as we see on the videos)

    I believed highly trained soldiers such as these commandos were taught how to neutralize people without killing them!
    This is absolutely ****ing ridiculous.

    No.

    Guess what bub, knives and clubs can KILL PEOPLE. This is especially true when you have a large crowd greatly out numbering another group.

    Knee's and legs are far smaller targets than center mass and are moving into different locations far more, leading to larger chances for shots to be missed. Higher chance for shots to be messed means more chances for your attackers to get close to you and your men. The higher the chance that they get closer the more danger you place yourself and your men in.

    If the individuals on the boat tried to attack the IDF soldiers with deadly force, and a knife or a metal pipe is deadly force, then the IDF should've done anything and everything they needed to give themselves the highest likelihood for survival while working towards the quickest way to end the attacks on them.

    What you are suggesting is that soldiers should actively put themselves and their companions at greater harm so as to not hurt people attempting to kill them to badly. Absolutely idiotic

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Indeed.
    Mmmm, yes. Trying to make it seem like I'm against America instead of merely being concerned about America and its prosperity. Great way to be intellectually dishonest.



    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I think that this was right before Jefferson sent Marines to fight the Barbary Pirates wasn't it?


    j-mac
    No it wasn't right before. Regardless, to highlight what he means. We do not have any mutual defense treaties with Israel....but we do with Turkey. Technically if Israel attacks the Turkish military, we're supposed to respond and defend Turkey. Probably wouldn't happen, but those are the treaties.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    From Reuters:

    Note that Reuters didn't report that Israel had interpreted the video that showed the clubbing and stabbing of two marines. Reuters mentioned what the video showed. Hence, on the issue as to whether the Israelis were attacked with knives, the answer is that they were.
    I am in agreement that videos I have seen look like serious violent fighting. I just don't know yet why it started.

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Those on the ship who engaged in violence should be prosecuted. Until the facts have been established, only those who clearly lack material knowledge and those who had no role in the violence should be released. The remainder should be detained until the facts have been established, with innocent ones being released, and the others prosecuted appropriately.
    Israel will have a lot of very traumatised people who are not used to this sort of thing.

    How long is Israel allowed to hold them without trial? How will Israel be able to know that they 'clearly' lack material knowledge? When will their families be able to speak to them?
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    The point is that these people were trying to bypass the blockade because they say it is illegal, they obviously did this to make Israel look bad, and they succeeded much more than they had hoped.
    yeah those 10 t0 20 dead people are so thrilled

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    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    ...then still call it a "blockade" but let the food enter, at least.

    they do, however they are not going to allow things that could have a dual purpose as a weapon as well.


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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This is absolutely ****ing ridiculous.
    Well I just compare with the way we do handle riots in Europe.

    A few years ago there were huge riots in Paris with thousands of rioters armed with clubs, they burnt 1,000 or 2,000 cars and even wounded several policemen. The French police charged several times, and I've never heard that they have killed or even wounded one of these rioters with gunfire.

    That shows that you can handle these situations without killing so many people.

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