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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    They should just not be surprised then when it's used as a staging area to attack Israel.
    No one was surprised, the blockade only came several years after the beginning of the rocket attacks on Israeli civilians by Hamas from the Gaza strip.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Seems to me Israel has pretty much scored an own goal with this fiasco.
    I almost feel sorry for Israel, it just cannot get a break.

    Killing civilians on ships under the flag of a NATO member and done in IW? I don't recall the last time I've seen a country so utterly devoted to ensuring its isolation from the world.
    What do you propose that Israel should have done instead?
    It was a lose-lose situation, either you let a ship into Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip without inspecting its cargo, or you do what Israel did and board the ship.
    The non-innocent civilians' deaths are the result of the fact that no one has even assumed that a bunch of peaceful activists would be packing weapons and lynch the soldiers, that were equipped with paintball guns.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    If people want to ignore me because this is slightly lazy on my part, be my guest. However was on a mini-vacation for 4 days and missed a lot of posts and saw this and am immedietely interested. I don't like making any kind of massive judgement until most of the facts are pretty much laid out there, and even an initial one I want to get a general idea. However this is a good 500 pages long already with much of it concerning discussions mostly back and forth between a few people. Anyone mind giving a little sum up of what is known thus far and what the opposition and support are generally saying?

    My mind always boggles with the Israel stuff as its so amazingly nuanced and so passionate on every side, its hard to get a good grip on it.
    6 ships which consisted of three cargo ships and three passenger ships from Cyprus entered International Waters (about 40 miles out to sea) on route to Israel carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza. One of the ships was provided by a group called IHH, legal in Turkey but accused by Israel of having ties with Al Qaeda and Hamas.

    Israel's navy intercepted and went aboard the ships. That is all fact but what happened next is disputed. Israel claims that when they went on board, they were attacked by the activists and it's soldiers had to defend themselves. The activists claim that Israeli's soldiers started shooting when they got on board with no provocation - However video evidence shows the activists were wielding things such as bats and metal bars contradicting claims that Israel attacked for no reason. At least 10 people died, and 30 were wounded as a result.

    The consequences of the raid has still not been determined although I doubt anyone can dispute Turkish/Israel relations just got another knocking. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the final nail in the coffin.
    Turkey has recalled the ambassador and because the ships were sailing under the Turkish flag and that many of the individuals on board were Turkish citizens, as a NATO member. NATO is going to convene for a response.
    So far about 7 countries have summoned their Israeli ambassador and UN has condemned.

    If I missed anything, feel free to correct me. That is the gist of it tho.


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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoop View Post
    I think you put a lot of people on the most partisan pro-Israeli side by stating this, to me it's pretty obvious Israel has little chance of an impartial investigation done by the UN. That doesn't mean no investigation is necessary, that just means I prefer an objective party.
    Then who do suggest would be more impartial than the UN? Whilst the UN may have passed many, many resolutions that the Israelis have failed to adhere to (perceived as Israel-critical bias?) they have failed repeatedly to enforce them (pro-Israeli bias?). There is no such thing as an objective party, just one that attempts to behave in an impartial manner.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Very misleading.
    Of course it's misleading - the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice have all said it was illegal and against the conventions and the Israeli Supreme Court has said it is legal under those same conventions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Secondly, the only basis that is being made by those who claim that the blockade is illegal is that Israel's intention is to punish the Palestinian population and not Hamas.
    Such basis is false since Israel has said a time after time that their intention is to cripple Hamas, so the blockade isn't illegal.
    That folks claim it is points at a political agenda and nothing more.
    have you read the Gisha refutation of the claim of the usage of the word "blockade?"

    "Collective punishment" is far more truthful.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    What do you propose that Israel should have done instead?
    It was a lose-lose situation, either you let a ship into Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip without inspecting its cargo, or you do what Israel did and board the ship.
    The non-innocent civilians' deaths are the result of the fact that no one has even assumed that a bunch of peaceful activists would be packing weapons and lynch the soldiers, that were equipped with paintball guns.
    Of course it was a lose/lose situation which is why I feel sorry for Israel.
    A violent confrontation played right into Hamas's agenda.

    Seeing Turkey would have known about the cargo as so many of its citizens were on board, would it not have made sense to get them on board (and by them = Govt.) and say Israel would allow the cargo through as long as it was searched?


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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Again, how much land should Israel have to give up for peace? All of it? how many rockets that kill civilians should Israel endure?


    j-mac
    We're derailing this thread however while Israel continues to act unilaterally by choosing when and whether to abide by international agreements, the Arabs who are on the end of those decisions will continue to act as they do. Why should the arabs abide by any rules when Israel equally does not?

    Anyhow, Israel isn't going to give up land anytime soon - particularly under Netanyahu - and the problem will continue to exist. The arabs aren't just going to lie down and live at peace within Israeli dictated terms anytime soon either. Either way - while nobody acts appropriately there aren't going to be any cessations in rocket attacks.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Build your house illegally and it'd be destroyed, whether you live in East Jerusalem or in Amsterdam.
    Well, not in West Bank, but that's another debate

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    have you read the Gisha refutation of the claim of the usage of the word "blockade?"

    "Collective punishment" is far more truthful.

    "Gisha" is a pro Palestinian propaganda organization, working within the Israeli system to undermine it. Much like the ACLU does here.


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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Of course it's misleading - the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice have all said it was illegal and against the conventions and the Israeli Supreme Court has said it is legal under those same conventions.
    And that's not the reason why it's misleading.
    have you read the Gisha refutation of the claim of the usage of the word "blockade?"
    Gisha is a small radical left organization, I do not read their reports and I couldn't really give a damn about them, but if you'd link to the report I'd be glad to refute their bullcrap.
    "Collective punishment" is far more truthful.
    Actually it's completely false and rejects reality.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 06-01-10 at 12:37 PM.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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