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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Well at least they can make a movie with this: "Pirates of the Mediterranean"

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Alexa,

    I heard that report on the radio when driving to work. I'm still not sure what actually has been found. But if detonators were found, that would raise serious concerns. Once the results of inspections are available, I believe more will be known. For now, the conditional "if" applies.
    Indeed it does. I am only speaking about what is known.

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post

    As with the passengers on the sixth ship, I don't know what the full number was.
    600 is the number I have heard on more than one day.

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post

    I believe it will be possible to sort through them, determining who might have knowledge about the ship's cargo, who may have committed violence, etc. Of course, if others refuse to cooperate, that process will take longer. Those who were involved in the violence and those who might have knowledge about weapons should be detained. Afterward, if no weapons were found, then the latter group could be released. Those responsible for violence should be prosecuted.
    I think it is a pity Israel stopped the passengers from being able to transmit and film. that would have given more information.

    As I said it is not just a methodical process, it is also a psychological one. My tv tells me Israel has already decided who these people are. I think this will colour the inquiry. I will be surprised if I am satisfied.

    All enquiries need to look at the motivation of the people involved. Israel, and I suspect you also, despite your genuine desire for fairness, have already decided.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    No, but perhaps you didn't see my initial post in this thread (Message #58) --snip--
    Oh I did see the post, I just have doubts that the IDF would prosecute jewish soldiers if they were found guilty.
    The prior cases of Hib al-Heib and Taysir Hayb spring to mind. Hayb is a Bedouin Arab-Israeli and may have been hung out to dry. Hib al-Heib is Jewish and was cleared despite being reprimanded for changing his story (as did Taysir Hayb) and has since been promoted. Israel did pay James Miller's family £1.5million compensation however.

    What I'm getting at is that laws of war weren't applied until external pressure by the families were brought to bear against Israel.
    Last edited by Infinite Chaos; 06-01-10 at 11:09 AM.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Israel's inspecting boats in international waters is not illegal nor is it without precedent. For example, the BBC reported:

    A massive cocaine seizure by the Royal Navy off the Nicaraguan coast has dealt a "sledgehammer blow" to traffickers, the defence secretary said.

    HMS Cumberland seized two tonnes of cocaine worth £200m after intercepting a speedboat during a routine patrol.


    The caption under the photo accompanying the story clearly notes, "HMS Cumberland intercepted the speedboat in international waters."
    Us again, setting these damn precedents. If I remember correctly quite a bit of soul searching did go in as to whether to do this. These were though smuggling boats not Turkish or German.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  5. #505
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Amnesty International, Geneva Conventions - Switzerland has complained, the UN etc. Obviously as none of these are American, I don't believe you will accept they have no agenda.

    With the eye roll at the end here I can see that your mind on the subject is nearly as closed in support of Palestine, and the "Activists" as mine is in support of Israeli actions.

    However, maybe we can have a conversation about this still.

    1. Amnesty Intl. - "Amnesty International Issues Report Accusing Israel of War Crimes" - Amnesty International Issues Report Accusing Israel of War Crimes

    So Amnesty Intl. believes that Israel is guilty of a war crime in even having this blockade. I'd say that is an agenda in denouncing what happened, no?


    2. Geneva Conventions - Please cite article, and verse on where A] Israel is bound by this in this conflict? and B] what Israel did to break any obligation it has under this.

    3. Switzerland, and the UN. The UN is decidedly anti Israel, has been for some time now, not a surprise. As far as the Swiss, aren't they supposed to be neutral? maybe they should sit down.


    Source BBC

    Source Gisha (Israeli Human Rights Group)

    One of many articles at the BBC that quotes the UN on the amount of aid allowed in

    Still debatable. Some stories of journalists sympathetic to the left leaning causes have little bearing on actual fact these days, especially when they use terms like 'reliable sources' (Unnamed).


    After Monday's incident, Egypt has just opened the border to Gaza. Before that, I'd speculate that there was a lot of US pressure to support Israel.

    Ah so it was the US's fault....I see. It couldn't be this explanation of the Egyptian government or anything....

    "Egypt maintains that it cannot open the Rafah crossing since opening the border would represent Egyptian recognition of the Hamas control of Gaza, undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority and consecrate the split between Gaza and the West Bank.[4]"

    2007


    Yes, but that "over reaction" by restricting the amount of food going into Israel shouldn't last 3 years...

    Do Hamas terrorists still fire rockets into Israel in that 3 years?


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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    What part of "they can't do it within international law because they've refused to be bound by international law" do you not understand?
    And this interpretation of international law is based on what? Furthermore; if a nation-state can't invoke international law then they certainly can't be bound by it either.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Us again, setting these damn precedents. If I remember correctly quite a bit of soul searching did go in as to whether to do this. These were though smuggling boats not Turkish or German.
    Alexa,

    The UK isn't alone. From the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's website:

    U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement special agents, working jointly with Caribbean Border Initiative (CCI) law enforcement officers, seized here today 1,930 kilograms of cocaine with a street value of approximately $58 million on board the Panamanian-flagged vessel M/V Megan Star...

    As a result of the joint investigative efforts by CCI participants, a U.S. Coast Guard law enforcement detachment on board the USS Farragut Navy vessel intercepted the M/V Megan Star in international waters.

    After successful coordination between officers of the USCG law enforcement detachment, Caribbean Corridor participating agencies, and the government of Panama, USCG personnel boarded the M/V Megan Star. The vessel was subsequently escorted to the Coast Guard base in San Juan for a more thorough inspection which revealed approximately 1,930 kilograms of cocaine hidden within different sections of the ship.


    The bottom line is that international waters do not offer legal sanctuary from inspections/boarding. Moreover, there is past precedent for it.

    As noted previously, the legality of the boarding is not in question. The events that transpired still need to be examined.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Oh I did see the post, I just have doubts that the IDF would prosecute jewish soldiers if they were found guilty.
    The prior cases of Hib al-Heib and Taysir Hayb spring to mind. Hayb is a Bedouin Arab-Israeli and may have been hung out to dry. Hib al-Heib is Jewish and was cleared despite being reprimanded for changing his story (as did Taysir Hayb) and has since been promoted. Israel did pay James Miller's family £1.5million compensation however.

    What I'm getting at is that laws of war weren't applied until external pressure by the families were brought to bear against Israel.
    I believe when violations of the Laws of War take place, the necessary measures to hold the individuals responsible to account for the violations should be carried out. It should not matter what countries the soldiers are from. Hence, for example, I favored prosecution of those responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    With the eye roll at the end here I can see that your mind on the subject is nearly as closed in support of Palestine, and the "Activists" as mine is in support of Israeli actions.

    However, maybe we can have a conversation about this still.
    Hey, I'm guilty as charged. I'm sorry for the comment. I've seen far too many US posters ridicule the UN simply because it isn't a mouthpiece for US policy - forgetting that it's 1) an international body and 2) the US is quite happy having it there as it can exert some control. (there have been moves in the past to move it either to canada or even Switzerland or some other neutral.)

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    1. Amnesty Intl. - "Amnesty International Issues Report Accusing Israel of War Crimes" - Amnesty International Issues Report Accusing Israel of War Crimes

    So Amnesty Intl. believes that Israel is guilty of a war crime in even having this blockade. I'd say that is an agenda in denouncing what happened, no?
    Not sure what you're getting at - however Amnesty's position is based on the Geneva conventions regarding "collective punishment."

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    -- 2. Geneva Conventions - Please cite article, and verse on where A] Israel is bound by this in this conflict? and B] what Israel did to break any obligation it has under this

    3. Switzerland, and the UN. The UN is decidedly anti Israel, has been for some time now, not a surprise. As far as the Swiss, aren't they supposed to be neutral? maybe they should sit down.
    Because they disagree with populist US and Israeli positions? (ignore my sarcasm - couldn't resist). Anyhow - here's the article on Switzerland. Forgive me tying the two requests together - however the simple fact that Switzerland made the call shows that experts on the convention there have studied and satisfied themselves. If you really truly want the actual context - fine - I'll waste half an hour os so getting it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    -- Still debatable. Some stories of journalists sympathetic to the left leaning causes have little bearing on actual fact these days, especially when they use terms like 'reliable sources' (Unnamed).
    The link isn't to a journalist - it's the story about the Israeli human rights agency taking the Israeli Govt to court.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    -- Ah so it was the US's fault....I see. It couldn't be this explanation of the Egyptian government or anything....
    I really don't wish to rehash the history of US involvement in Israeli-Egyptian affairs...

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    -- "Egypt maintains that it cannot open the Rafah crossing since opening the border would represent Egyptian recognition of the Hamas control of Gaza, undermine the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority and consecrate the split between Gaza and the West Bank.[4]"

    2007
    And if you read my ealier links - the BBC reports that Egypt has now lifted the blockade.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    -- Do Hamas terrorists still fire rockets into Israel in that 3 years?


    j-mac
    That is no justification of or for "collective punishment"

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I believe when violations of the Laws of War take place, the necessary measures to hold the individuals responsible to account for the violations should be carried out. It should not matter what countries the soldiers are from. Hence, for example, I favored prosecution of those responsible for the abuses at Abu Ghraib.
    As do I Don, we shall wait and see if there are charges brought against any Jewish commanders / commandos and whether they are held responsible. In the same vein - those protestors on the ship who may be found guilty should equally be held responsible. I do have a little more faith that guilty protestors will be punished though - less faith that any Israelis (if found guilty) would be punished.

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