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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Incorrect.

    There is nothing that grants power to a State to exercise authority outside its territorial jurisdiction.
    UNCLOS and Agreement on Part XI - Preamble and frame index
    "except in accordance with this convention..." is the key qualifier. For that, one has to go to Articles 95 and 96. The ships that are immune from inspection are spelled out. The flotilla would not qualify.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    The blockade by Israel and Egypt of Gaza has been deemed "collective punishment" of all the people of Gaza.

    Deemed by whom? Hamas? The UN? Both have an agenda.


    Israel does allow some goods in but apparently only a quarter of what is necessary and there are reports of malnutrition.
    Do you have a source for that? Because according to Israel, members could have escorted their contents into Gaza to make sure they arrived.


    "Collective punishment" is usually seen as illegal and would be if any other country than Israel were involved
    And why do you suppose that Egypt, a Muslim country as well upholds a blockade with Israel?


    but many American posters seem oblivious to the fact that Israel can sometimes do wrong.

    That is always possible, but in a case where repeated attempts, and offers of peace have repeatedly been shunned by the Palestinians, and cease fires are shattered by rocket fire into populated civilian areas, then at some point an over reaction or two is inevitable.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I expect comments like that from many Americans on the forum who misunderstand the nature and workings of the UN - didn't expect that from you Don.


    I don't know about Don, but I'm sure never surprised by the dogmatic views of Europeans who aren't sharp enough to figure out the fallacies of the appeal to authority and the appeal to popularity, myself.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    "except in accordance with this convention..." is the key qualifier. For that, one has to go to Articles 95 and 96. The ships that are immune from inspection are spelled out. The flotilla would not qualify.
    You do realize that Israel is a non-signatory, right?
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    You do realize that Israel is a non-signatory, right?
    You do realize that this argument would mean that they aren't bound by anything and can do as they please, right?
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    The call for an investigation has been watered down at US insistence from an International Inquiry to a "transparent investigation." The International Inquiry would I believe have been far more critical and probably taken in the Gaza factor. The intention of watering down the proposal is for Israel's benefit IMO.
    Infinite Chaos,

    My objection is not to the call for an investigation, even if the language were more robust. My objection is not to expressing regret that people lost their lives. My objections concern a rush to judgment--condemnation in this case--before the facts are clear and an investigation has been carried out. Issuing a condemnation, which is tantamount to a finding of guilt, before an investigation is carried out and the facts/circumstances have been established is not balanced. It is this kind of action that has occurred time and again at the UN General Assembly, but not very often at the Security Council where judgment has been more collected and rational, not impulsive.

    Immediate relaease of the ships - they haven't committed illegal acts nor been found to have been trying to bring in any weapons for Gaza as some posters have tried to imply earlier. As for the civilians - no proof exists that they are terrorists or Hamas. Indeed some are international sympathisers including a couple of German MPs. Why are they locked up?

    The "small number who started the violence should be locked up" - what happens if it turns out that the Israelis started the violence? We've all seen the footage of commandos coming on board - is this the start of action or have the IDF (like Al-Jazeera) only shown what is conducive to their arguement?
    More specifically, I have no objections to releasing the ships and most of the crew. Those on the sixth ship should be detained, as should those who might have material information. Once it has been determined whether weapons were on board, appropriate prosecutorial action should be undertaken on that front. If no weapons were on board, then no prosecutions on weapons smuggling charges would be required. Those who engaged in violence should be prosecuted.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Of course. I mentioned that much earlier in this thread. I just wanted to point out that the interpretation that the flotilla enjoyed immunity from visits/inspection under the LOSC is incorrect.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Alexa,

    I used the word "if" concerning weapons, as details remain somewhat unclear. From what I have heard, and the reports still need to be verified, is that knives and detonators were found. Detonators would raise the biggest concern, as those could have been en route to Hamas' weapons factories.
    Please provide the link for detonators. I have looked in lots of different places and listened to many reports and not heard of any detonations except the ones done by Israel


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    An investigation will provide the exact details as to what happened. What is known on video footage is that the soldiers were attacked and suffered wounds. Under attack, they responded and their response also included live fire.
    May provide. I am sure you know there are a multiple of variables which may come into the equation. One is the psychological stance. My hunch for instance could be true but never looked at.

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post

    The medical records will determine whether the soldiers were stabbed, beaten, or shot, as has been cited.
    It looks more than likely that there was indeed some serious violence on the part of some passengers/crewe. I still believe the reason for that violence is crucial. The way Israel is talking about it, I doubt if they will look at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post

    It should be noted that the Israeli forces likely used the same tactics with the five other boats and met no resistance. Why did the sixth boat resist? If the reports about weapons is accurate, the cargo would explain the motive for their resistance, as the discovery of such a cargo would lead to prosecutions. It would also shatter the idea that the flotilla was solely on a humanitarian mission. I have little doubt that many of the people involved with the flotilla believed that it was, but have concerns about that sixth ship and its crew.
    Ok, I will speculate. This boat was different from the others. It was for instance the first boat. Perhaps the other ships on hearing the bullets had time to think and made sure no one did anything to get things started.

    However I have also heard the Israeli's were able to stop the motors of the others. Did they go into the others by helicopter or boat.

    There is a tiny number of list of 600 people who were involved in any violence. It does not seem plausible to me to think that one ship with 600 people on board decided it would include ten terrorists and none on the others. I have seen loads of the people on the boats. They are just normal decent people I have seen.

    and.....People in Scotland are already talking about another boat.


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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Of course. I mentioned that much earlier in this thread. I just wanted to point out that the interpretation that the flotilla enjoyed immunity from visits/inspection under the LOSC is incorrect.
    Indeed, that's the opinion of the spokesman of Israel's prime minister.

    But all the experts say the contrary:

    Robin Churchill, a professor of international law at the University of Dundee in Scotland, said the Israeli commandos boarded the ship outside of Israel's territorial waters. "As far as I can see, there is no legal basis for boarding these ships," Churchill said.[92]

    Ove Bring, Swedish expert on public international law, said that Israel had no right to take military action.[93]

    That is also supported by Mark Klamberg at Stockholm University.[94]

    Hugo Tiberg, professor in maritime law, states that Israel had no right to attack the ships.[95]

    Canadian scholar Michael Byers notes that the event would only be legal if the Israeli boarding were necessary and proportionate for the country's self defence. Byers believes that "the action does not appear to have been necessary in that the threat was not imminent."[96]

    The UK Times's defence editor wrote that "Israel may face problems justifying the legality of its decision", not least because "[U]nder the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, the high seas are regarded as not belonging to any nation". While boarding a vessel is acceptable in some circumstances, Israel still needed to seek permission from Turkey.[97]

    Jason Alderwick, a maritime analyst at the International Institute for Strategic Studies of London, is quoted as saying that the Israeli raid did not appear to have been conducted lawfully under the convention.
    Gaza flotilla clash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Please provide the link for detonators. I have looked in lots of different places and listened to many reports and not heard of any detonations except the ones done by Israel
    Alexa,

    I heard that report on the radio when driving to work. I'm still not sure what actually has been found. But if detonators were found, that would raise serious concerns. Once the results of inspections are available, I believe more will be known. For now, the conditional "if" applies.

    As with the passengers on the sixth ship, I don't know what the full number was. I believe it will be possible to sort through them, determining who might have knowledge about the ship's cargo, who may have committed violence, etc. Of course, if others refuse to cooperate, that process will take longer. Those who were involved in the violence and those who might have knowledge about weapons should be detained. Afterward, if no weapons were found, then the latter group could be released. Those responsible for violence should be prosecuted.

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