Page 48 of 147 FirstFirst ... 3846474849505898 ... LastLast
Results 471 to 480 of 1469

Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

  1. #471
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    3,216

    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Until they forcibly took weapons from the Israelis and opened fire on the Israelis.



    There have been several posts about it. Here is one: http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1058778784
    That cite of international law is incorrect in this case. The ships in question were not merchant vessels or commerial boats, they were humanitarian ships on a relief effort.

    SECTION III : ENEMY VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT EXEMPT FROM ATTACK

    Classes of vessels exempt from attack

    47. The following classes of enemy vessels are exempt from attack:

    (a) hospital ships;
    (b) small craft used for coastal rescue operations and other medical transports;
    (c) vessels granted safe conduct by agreement between the belligerent parties including:
    (i) cartel vessels, e.g., vessels designated for and engaged in the transport of prisoners of war;
    (ii) vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations;
    Conditions of exemption

    48. Vessels listed in paragraph 47 are exempt from attack only if they:

    (a) are innocently employed in their normal role;
    (b) submit to identification and inspection when required; and
    (c) do not intentionally hamper the movement of combatants and obey orders to stop or move out of the way when required.
    donsutherland1 posted that they were required to submit to identification and inspection and refused to do so. They identified themselves but do not, under any circumstance, have to submit to an inspection while in international waters. Israel has no authority to require a neutral vessel to submit to an inspection in international waters. Had they been in Israeli territorial waters, they would have all the authority to make them submit to an inspection. But it happened in international waters.
    Last edited by Degreez; 06-01-10 at 09:41 AM.

  2. #472
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Seen
    07-23-12 @ 03:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    6,763
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    It looks like the friendship between Turkey and Israel may be at an end.
    duh!!!



    .

  3. #473
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Last Seen
    07-23-12 @ 03:52 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    6,763
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    That cite of international law is incorrect in this case. The ships in question were not merchant vessels or commerial boats, they were humanitarian ships on a relief effort.

    donsutherland1 posted that they were required to submit to identification and inspection and refused to do so. They identified themselves but do not, under any circumstance, have to submit to an inspection while in international waters. Israel has no authority to require a neutral vessel to submit to an inspection in international waters. Had they been in Israeli territorial waters, they would have all the authority to make them submit to an inspection. But it happened in international waters.
    They are not enemy vessels, so paragraph 47 does not apply.

  4. #474
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    New York
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 12:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    11,691

    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    donsutherland1 posted that they were required to submit to identification and inspection and refused to do so. They identified themselves but do not, under any circumstance, have to submit to an inspection while in international waters.
    There is nothing in the San Remo Manual that bars such inspections in international waters. The manual is very specific about exemptions, including those in neutral waters (neutral waters are waters under the jurisdiction of sovereign states neutral to a conflict; they are not the same thing as international waters).

  5. #475
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 11:47 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    3,216

    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    There is nothing in the San Remo Manual that bars such inspections in international waters. The manual is very specific about exemptions, including those in neutral waters (neutral waters are waters under the jurisdiction of sovereign states neutral to a conflict; they are not the same thing as international waters).
    Incorrect.

    There is nothing that grants power to a State to exercise authority outside its territorial jurisdiction.
    http://www.un.org/Depts/los/conventi...s/closindx.htm
    Article24

    Duties of the coastal State

    1. The coastal State shall not hamper the innocent passage of foreign ships through the territorial sea except in accordance with this Convention. In particular, in the application of this Convention or of any laws or regulations adopted in conformity with this Convention, the coastal State shall not:

    (a) impose requirements on foreign ships which have the practical effect of denying or impairing the right of innocent passage; or

    (b) discriminate in form or in fact against the ships of any State or against ships carrying cargoes to, from or on behalf of any State.

    2. The coastal State shall give appropriate publicity to any danger to navigation, of which it has knowledge, within its territorial sea.
    Last edited by Degreez; 06-01-10 at 09:50 AM.

  6. #476
    Sage
    j-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    30,332

    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I don't think there is any evidence that there is anything but aid. All ships were inspected in Turkey prior to departure.

    And I don't think that there is any word yet about what was on that ship one way or another. Just speculation.

    As far as Turkey saying that these ships were inspected before departure, Ok. That is Turkey saying so. Thy might have been, they might not have been....Are you saying that when the contents of this sixth ship are revealed that we hold Turkey accountable if it is found to have been carrying rockets and weapons?


    Turkey is furious.
    It is Israel's right to defend its blockade. The ships could have proceeded to an Israeli port and had the contents escorted across the border to Gaza no problem.

    Whether the Government was involved I do not now and doubt but it is angry.
    But you said they inspected the ships before departure, now you back off when the question is asked about whether or not the government sanctioned this convoy? Why?

    It was a Turkish ship.
    Yes

    If it had been a British ship our government would have had a responsibility to protect us, particularly if we are attacked on the high seas.
    And what do you think would be the official British response if shown that the ship had weapons aboard, and trying to "Smash the blockade"?


    So Israel would think it was worth WW3 you think.
    A little overdramatic don't you think?


    You are American are you not. You should be aware that Turkey is also an important ally of the US.
    Allies are like family, even family members screw up from time to time, and it is up to the other family members to tell them so.

    Israel seems also furious with Turkey. I heard one of their spokespeople this morning comparing the Turkish Government to Hamas. It looks like the friendship between Turkey and Israel may be at an end.
    If it turns out that the sixth ship was carrying rockets or other weapons to Gaza, and trying to circumvent the blockade for that reason, I think that call is spot on.

    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

  7. #477
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    New York
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 12:40 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    11,691

    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I think the weapons were sticks and iron rods which were on the boat. Some people apparently also had knifes. Apart from that I have seen some marbles and a few catapults.
    Alexa,

    I used the word "if" concerning weapons, as details remain somewhat unclear. From what I have heard, and the reports still need to be verified, is that knives and detonators were found. Detonators would raise the biggest concern, as those could have been en route to Hamas' weapons factories.

    I watched a CNN video where they had an expert who talked through the Israel movie. He pointed out that when the first man was getting near the ship from a helicopter the Israelis set off some harmless explosion, can't remember the name, to divert the passengers attention. One of the things I am interested in, is whether the people believed they were under attack. The explosion may well have led them to believe this.
    An investigation will provide the exact details as to what happened. What is known on video footage is that the soldiers were attacked and suffered wounds. Under attack, they responded and their response also included live fire.

    The medical records will determine whether the soldiers were stabbed, beaten, or shot, as has been cited. An investigation will also reveal numerous other details. It should be noted that the Israeli forces likely used the same tactics with the five other boats and met no resistance. Why did the sixth boat resist? If the reports about weapons is accurate, the cargo would explain the motive for their resistance, as the discovery of such a cargo would lead to prosecutions. It would also shatter the idea that the flotilla was solely on a humanitarian mission. I have little doubt that many of the people involved with the flotilla believed that it was, but have concerns about that sixth ship and its crew.

  8. #478
    Guru

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    10-29-17 @ 02:04 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,684

    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    What will happen if Turkey engages in an act of war?

    I imagine it will be recognized by Israel as an act of war.
    Turkey would be legally quite entitled to ensure her boats safety until she got to Israeli waters. If Israel were to attack her there she would be the one beginning a war.

    Do you have the same opinion of Iran. I have noted people go crazy when Iran takes action when ships accidentally go into her waters. How would you feel if she demanded to board a US ship in International waters. You might feel the need of your navy then.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

  9. #479
    Sage
    Infinite Chaos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Last Seen
    11-19-17 @ 06:45 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    14,858

    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    -- IMO, the Statement is badly unbalanced and is symptomatic that the excessive bias that has long pervaded the UN General Assembly and various UN bodies has begun to spread into the Security Council.
    I expect comments like that from many Americans on the forum who misunderstand the nature and workings of the UN - didn't expect that from you Don.

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    --On one hand, it calls for "a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards" (something I agree with and believe is very much in Israel's interests; if the statement only included that call and expressed regret over the loss of life, it would have been appropriate, but it didn't). On the other, it rushes to judgment before such an investigation has even been undertaken and "condemns those acts which resulted in the loss of at least ten civilians and many wounded" without acknowledging any of the violence by the crew that instigated the whole incident. It also calls for "the immediate release of the ships as well as the civilians held by Israel." That, too, is an unacceptable act of interference with Israel's sovereignty. The small number of individuals who started the violence should be prosecuted accordingly. If, in fact, weapons were present on the ship, those on the particular ship should also be prosecuted for transporting illicit weapons.
    The call for an investigation has been watered down at US insistence from an International Inquiry to a "transparent investigation." The International Inquiry would I believe have been far more critical and probably taken in the Gaza factor. The intention of watering down the proposal is for Israel's benefit IMO.

    The condemnation of "acts leading to loss of life" were also won at US insistence. Turkey wanted outright condemnation of the boarding and the subsequent shootings but " acts leading to loss of life" leaves room for Israel to also condemn the flotilla for ever setting sail.

    Immediate relaease of the ships - they haven't committed illegal acts nor been found to have been trying to bring in any weapons for Gaza as some posters have tried to imply earlier. As for the civilians - no proof exists that they are terrorists or Hamas. Indeed some are international sympathisers including a couple of German MPs. Why are they locked up?

    The "small number who started the violence should be locked up" - what happens if it turns out that the Israelis started the violence? We've all seen the footage of commandos coming on board - is this the start of action or have the IDF (like Al-Jazeera) only shown what is conducive to their arguement?

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    -- 2. Why was the stated intent of the so called flotilla to break the blockade? --
    The blockade by Israel and Egypt of Gaza has been deemed "collective punishment" of all the people of Gaza. Israel does allow some goods in but apparently only a quarter of what is necessary and there are reports of malnutrition. "Collective punishment" is usually seen as illegal and would be if any other country than Israel were involved - but many American posters seem oblivious to the fact that Israel can sometimes do wrong.

  10. #480
    Sage
    j-mac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    30,332

    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    That cite of international law is incorrect in this case. The ships in question were not merchant vessels or commerial boats, they were humanitarian ships on a relief effort.

    So says Turkey. Israel seems to say that they were breaking the law in two separate ways. 1. They were actively trying to "break the blockade". 2. They were refusing to port where told to do so.

    Israel has the right to see what is going on with the contents of that ship.


    donsutherland1 posted that they were required to submit to identification and inspection and refused to do so. They identified themselves but do not, under any circumstance, have to submit to an inspection while in international waters. Israel has no authority to require a neutral vessel to submit to an inspection in international waters. Had they been in Israeli territorial waters, they would have all the authority to make them submit to an inspection. But it happened in international waters.
    Unless they of a hostile intent. I would say that openly saying that they were going to 'break the blockade' qualifies no?


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

Page 48 of 147 FirstFirst ... 3846474849505898 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •