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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

  1. #421
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    and my point is you want it both ways.
    I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    israel is not on the document pretaining to conduct on the seas but you expect to invoke its provisions when it might be to israel's benefit
    Where have I said anything remotely like this? Again, treaties are not the same thing as customary international law.

    but when it comes time to comply with the international NPT isreal insists it is not relevant because it refused to sign
    This is in no way logically inconsistent with my above statements.

    and to demonstrate further hypocrisy, israel dares to inveigh against iran's nuclear development, citing the provisions of the NPT
    A) I don't really care
    B) That's in no way relevant to anything being discussed in this thread
    C) I'm not sure that you're relaying this information correctly

    this is the kind of behavior which causes the term 'to be jewed down' to become part of the prevalent lexicon
    No, "jewed down" is an epithet that comes from a belief that jews are prone to haggling or otherwise cheating business correspondents. Not only does it have nothing to do with this discussion, but it's offensive as well.

    but stow this away for another thread on the iran nuclear development topic rather than continuing to derail this one
    Let's do that, and get back to your misunderstanding of international law as applied to this incident.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  2. #422
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    No sympathy for people who cheered 9.11. Amazing how some of you have forgotten that.

    YouTube - Palestinian response on 11/9
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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  3. #423
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    No sympathy for people who cheered 9.11. Amazing how some of you have forgotten that.
    Amazing that that is the sum total of your contribution to this 43-page thread.

    No, wait, never mind. It's not amazing at all.

    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    The date on which Israel became a state is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether it is bound by customary international law. If a state were created tomorrow, it would be bound by the same customary norms as the UK or France.
    All I'm trying to say is that Israel has no tradition of custom to call upon that pre-date these treaties. They can't say "we've been doing this for hundreds of years, suck it."

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Customary norms continue to be relevant today because they are the default rule of international law. Treaties are abberations from that norm.
    How much of what is recognized by most of the world these days as international law defined strictly by custom, and not by treaties?

    If most of the rest of the world defines the law of the sea via a particular treaty, and Israel is not a signatory nation, isn't it fair to say that Israel can't use the law of the sea to justify what they're doing?

    If there is significant disagreement over what the law of the sea actually is -- custom versus treaty -- then that serves to further prove my point, that Israel can't claim some sort of universal standard to justify what they did.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  5. #425
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    this is the kind of behavior which causes the term 'to be jewed down' to become part of the prevalent lexicon
    e
    What's next -- suggesting that other minorities also deserve the hate speech of ignorant racist pricks?
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

  6. #426
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Amazing that that is the sum total of your contribution to this 43-page thread.

    No, wait, never mind. It's not amazing at all.

    Sorry, dont have time to sympathize with terrorist supporters but perhaps you do
    Last edited by texmaster; 06-01-10 at 01:08 AM.
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  7. #427
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    All I'm trying to say is that Israel has no tradition of custom to call upon that pre-date these treaties. They can't say "we've been doing this for hundreds of years, suck it."
    It's not Israel's traditions that are relevant, it's the international community's traditions.

    Imagine that members of a social club have an unwritten rule that if there's crappy beer in the fridge, any member can drink it. They also have some more formal written rules that discuss what happens with fine scotch (e.g. the person who brings it always gets the last drink, etc.). Now imagine that a new person joins the club, years after all these unwritten and written rules come into force. If that new person wants to drink fine scotch, he has to abide by the written rules, even though they were drafted before he got there. However, if he wants to grab a PBR, he's free to do so regardless of whether he ever drinks scotch. The fact that he was not there for the formation of the tradition or that he does not participate in the written scotch agreement has no bearing on whether or not he can participate in the custom of drinking crappy beer.

    How much of what is recognized by most of the world these days as international law defined strictly by custom, and not by treaties?
    Almost everything derives from customary international law in one way or another. Treaties are simply codifications of particular areas within a field.

    If most of the rest of the world defines the law of the sea via a particular treaty, and Israel is not a signatory nation, isn't it fair to say that Israel can't use the law of the sea to justify what they're doing?
    No. If the treaty is universally accepted as the exclusive law for a particular field, then it is the customary international law in that field. In that case, whether or not Israel was a signatory would be irrelevant, as it would still be bound by those principles. If the treaty is not universally accepted as the exclusive law for a particular field, then nonsignatories are only bound by the customary international law that the treaty sought to replace.

    If there is significant disagreement over what the law of the sea actually is -- custom versus treaty -- then that serves to further prove my point, that Israel can't claim some sort of universal standard to justify what they did.
    I don't think that Israel is claiming that every nation must agree that their actions are legal under all laws, I believe they're simply arguing that their actions are appropriate under customary international law. The fact that some countries may have signed onto another treaty doesn't necessarily change that.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 06-01-10 at 01:06 AM.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Sorry, dont have time to sympathize with terorists supporters but perhaps you do
    You also don't have time to come up with a suitable comeback.

    Seriously, better writers or GTFO.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  9. #429
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    You also don't have time to come up with a suitable comeback.

    Seriously, better writers or GTFO.
    What suitable comback? You are arguing for terrorist sympathizers who ran a blockade.

    Its pathetic watching you trying to justify it.
    Last edited by texmaster; 06-01-10 at 01:10 AM.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    It's not Israel's traditions that are relevant, it's the international community's traditions.

    Imagine that members of a social club have an unwritten rule that if there's crappy beer in the fridge, any member can drink it. They also have some more formal written rules that discuss what happens with fine scotch (e.g. the person who brings it always gets the last drink, etc.). Now imagine that a new person joins the club, years after all these unwritten and written rules come into force. If that new person wants to drink fine scotch, he has to abide by the written rules, even though they were drafted before he got there. However, if he wants to grab a PBR, he's free to do so regardless of whether he ever drinks scotch. The fact that he was not there for the formation of the tradition or that he does not participate in the written scotch agreement has no bearing on whether or not he can participate in the custom of drinking crappy beer.



    Almost everything derives from customary international law in one way or another. Treaties are simply codifications of particular areas within a field.



    No. If the treaty is universally accepted as the exclusive law for a particular field, then it is the customary international law in that field. In that case, whether or not Israel was a signatory would be irrelevant, as it would still be bound by those principles. If the treaty is not universally accepted as the exclusive law for a particular field, then nonsignatories are only bound by the customary international law that the treaty sought to replace.



    I don't think that Israel is claiming that every nation must agree that their actions are legal under all laws, I believe they're simply arguing that their actions are appropriate under customary international law. The fact that some countries may have signed onto another treaty doesn't necessarily change that.
    Okay. I guess what it comes down to is my Constitutional pedantry won't necessarily get me much further than the door of the proverbial social club, if in fact most of the rules aren't written.

    For some reason I was under the impression that they were.

    I guess that's what I get for spending too much time thinking about the Geneva Conventions, much less the Constitution.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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