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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

  1. #411
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    They didn't do that. They did the sort of thing people did in the 60's and people like Greenpeace have done since. Basically it falls under civil disobedience as far as I can see and I think that is how the world is seeing it.
    What a complete insult to all the dedicated people who struggled for civil rights in the 60's to have you compare them to these terrorist supporters who attacked those who boarded their ship.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    They didn't do that. They did the sort of thing people did in the 60's and people like Greenpeace have done since. Basically it falls under civil disobedience as far as I can see and I think that is how the world is seeing it.
    How does that make it okay? See my avatar for more info.

    What they were trying to do was to bring humanitarian aid to Gaza and to bring the issue to the attention of the world. There were 5 or 600 people on this boat I think and a handful were in some way which we do not yet know involved in some violence towards the soldiers.
    Again, the fact that their end goal might be laudatory from one's perspective is irrelevant to the question of whether or not the way they went about it was appropriate. As to the number of people involved in the incident, I'm sure we'll learn more in the coming days.


    If such a response was a possibility, then more care was needed in the way Israel dealt with the situation.

    This is what I find strange. If you knew people were planning this, then Israel knew people were planning this. More care should have been taken. Innocents were almost certainly killed.
    That's a perfectly reasonable argument, and we don't know enough yet to say more about what should have happened re:planning. Nevertheless, I think it's clear that this was not unprovoked or unexpected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    I'm basing my objections on what actually happened. You are basing yours on pure speculation.
    Because we're talking about a hypothetical situation. I'm trying to determine whether your objections come from the location of the incident or what actually happened.

    But I'll play this little scenario for you:

    There are a total of 6 ships that are part of that convoy. Israel's Navy is more than capable of maintaining a proper naval blocking of those six ships. If they do not comply with rerouting requests, they either take the risk of running into the naval blocking by Israel's Navy or they get boarded. All of this is fine... off Israel's territorial waters. It is not fine in international waters, outside of Israeli jurisdiction.
    So you're saying that your objections to the incident are based on the fact that it happened in international waters? If Israel had boarded the ships in the same fashion 24 miles from its borders, you wouldn't have a problem?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Because we're talking about a hypothetical situation. I'm trying to determine whether your objections come from the location of the incident or what actually happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez
    I'm basing my objections on what actually happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So you're saying that your objections to the incident are based on the fact that it happened in international waters? If Israel had boarded the ships in the same fashion 24 miles from its borders, you wouldn't have a problem?
    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez
    All of this is fine... off Israel's territorial waters. It is not fine in international waters, outside of Israeli jurisdiction.
    Are you satisfied? Can we get back to discussing what actually happened and not a hypothetical situation? Cause I can continue hypothetical situations if you want. For example, what if Godzilla came out of the ocean and started harrassing the flotilla? Does Israel have a right to intervene? What is Godzilla doing so far from Japan?

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    What is Godzilla doing so far from Japan?
    going on holidays, perhaps seeing if different peopel taste different
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Are you satisfied? Can we get back to discussing what actually happened and not a hypothetical situation? Cause I can continue hypothetical situations if you want. For example, what if Godzilla came out of the ocean and started harrassing the flotilla? Does Israel have a right to intervene? What is Godzilla doing so far from Japan?
    I'm sorry if I didn't make my point clear, but if I'm going to debate you on this, I think it's rather important to determine whether your objections are based on the location of the activity or on the activity itself, as that bears directly on what we're really discussing.

    You just said that it would be fine had Israel done this in its territorial waters, but that contradicts what you said a few posts back:

    Quote Originally Posted by degreez
    It's not just the fact that it was done in international waters, away from Israeli jurisdiction. It's the fact that they even attempted to forcefully board a humanitarian ship instead of rerouting it. There were half a dozen choices that could've been made. Don't blame me because Israel chose the most stupid one.
    Which is it?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The Law of the Sea Convention (LOSC) is based on principles of international law that go as far back as the Hague Conventions. That Israel didn't sign the Convention does not mean that it lacks such jurisdiction as exists under international law. In short, while Israel cannot invoke the LOSC, it most definitely can invoke international law and the general principles relevant to the incident in question.
    byebye bibi
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    please remember the position you have staked out above when we next discuss iran's development of nuclear technology and israel's refusal to be compliant with the NPT, with which it is similarly not a signatory. i am pleased to see you recognize israel is obligated to invoke international law and general principals even if it failed to execute the NPT document
    apologies for the detour from the topic about the armed israeli assault on the humanitarian effort to break the seige of gaza; i could not pass up the opportunity to force certain members to either be hypocrites or acknowledge that israel's obligation to conform to international conventions exists ... even if it has chosen not to execute the underlying documents putting words to those international expectations
    Last edited by justabubba; 06-01-10 at 12:01 AM.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    please remember the position you have staked out above when we next discuss iran's development of nuclear technology and israel's refusal to be compliant with the NPT, with which it is similarly not a signatory. i am pleased to see you recognize israel is obligated to invoke international law and general principals even if it failed to execute the NPT document
    apologies for the detour from the topic about the armed israeli assault on the humanitarian effort to break the seige of gaza; i could not pass up the opportunity to force certain members to either be hypocrites or acknowledge that israel's obligation to conform to international conventions exists ... even if it has chosen not to execute the underlying documents putting words to those international expectations
    This doesn't make any sense - what customary principles of international law govern the development of nuclear weapons?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This doesn't make any sense - what customary principles of international law govern the development of nuclear weapons?
    the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty
    the one israel also chose not to sign
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty
    the one israel also chose not to sign
    That's a treaty, not a customary norm of international law. That's my point.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    That's a treaty, not a customary norm of international law. That's my point.
    and my point is you want it both ways. israel is not on the document pretaining to conduct on the seas but you expect to invoke its provisions when it might be to israel's benefit
    but when it comes time to comply with the international NPT isreal insists it is not relevant because it refused to sign
    and to demonstrate further hypocrisy, israel dares to inveigh against iran's nuclear development, citing the provisions of the NPT
    this is the kind of behavior which causes the term 'to be jewed down' to become part of the prevalent lexicon
    but stow this away for another thread on the iran nuclear development topic rather than continuing to derail this one
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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