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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    This thread can only be summed up with one visual image.


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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    By blocking their movement from entering Gaza's territorial waters. In international waters, they have no authority over them and cannot ask them to reroute.
    Once again, you're basing your objections on the fact that this happened in international waters, which is (IMO) not really the important issue.

    Say that this entire incident had occurred 24 miles from Israel's border. Israel follows your advice and tries to prevent the ships from entering the water by blocking them or asking them to reroute. The ships refuse to be stopped and continue on their course.

    How should they prevent them from going forward?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Treaties are not the foundations of international law, they are modifications to a pre-existing backdrop of customary law.
    I'd agree with you if you said that treaties are not the foundations of international custom. If they aren't the foundations of international law, then what the devil is? I thought that treaties were agreements entered into by 2 or more nations, designed to define acceptable and unacceptable behavior on one or a range of subjects.

    Where else could international law possibly come from?

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    If Israel did not sign this treaty, it cannot say that its actions are legitimized by the treaty itself. However, I haven't seen anything to indicate that that's what they are claiming. Regardless of whether they signed the treaty, they can claim that their actions are in accordance with customary norms of international law. They can even refer to the treaty's language as a reference for what that customary law entails.
    My layman's understanding of international law in these circumstances is that the international law in question is defined by treaty. As such, to invoke the law is to invoke the treaty.

    Israel's Foreign Minister has most certainly invoked international law to justify his nation's actions:

    FM: 'boarding legal under int. law'
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    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The Law of the Sea Convention (LOSC) is based on principles of international law that go as far back as the Hague Conventions. That Israel didn't sign the Convention does not mean that it lacks such jurisdiction as exists under international law. In short, while Israel cannot invoke the LOSC, it most definitely can invoke international law and the general principles relevant to the incident in question.
    What do you suppose Israel would say to any challenge to their behavior under international law as defined by a treaty which Israel didn't sign?

    The United States, in a similar predicament, would give essentially the same response:

    Kiss our ass.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This thread can only be summed up with one visual image.
    Not sure why you think that, as the last few pages have primarily been populated with the most respectful and high-level debate I've seen here in a while.

    "Sir, I would object to these actions on the grounds that they violated the UNCLOS Agreement"
    "Sir, I do believe you are misapplying the principles of this treaty"

    v.

    "Nuh uh, PaliNAZI and her teabaggers don't understand how demcoracy works."
    "lmao thats cuz were a REPUBIC, libtard!"
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Not sure why you think that, as the last few pages have primarily been populated with the most respectful and high-level debate I've seen here in a while.

    "Sir, I would object to these actions on the grounds that they violated the UNCLOS Agreement"
    "Sir, I do believe you are misapplying the principles of this treaty"

    v.

    "Nuh uh, PaliNAZI and her teabaggers don't understand how demcoracy works."
    "lmao thats cuz were a REPUBIC, libtard!"
    The debate is good, but my point is that I don't feel that both sides can reconsile and come to an agreement on the subject.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Your sincerity is never in any doubt with me. I have misgivings. My misgivings come from the time when soldiers complained about how things that happened in the 2009 Gaza war and they were discredited and other such things.
    IMO, it is in Israel's interest to be as transparent as possible when it comes to investigation(s) into the matter. To facilitate transparency, Israel could work with the International Red Cross, allow the EU/U.S. to examine the evidence, etc. It certainly would not require a lot of effort for Israel to allow the International Red Cross to obtain information concerning the soldiers' injuries, share forensic evidence with the EU/U.S., etc. Of course, like any sovereign state, they don't have to do so, but I believe it is very much in their interest to do so.

    In addition because the law on whether they could board or not seems to be very questionable, it will be Israel deciding.
    Under the San Remo Memorandum, not to mention customary international law, such visitations/inspections are legal. I highly doubt that any case on that issue will be heard by the International Court of Justice.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This thread can only be summed up with one visual image.

    That pretty much applies to any discussion regarding Israel.

    Here you have the individuals upon a ship sponsored by an organization with direct ties to Al Qaeda attacking the Idf members who boarded it, and you have all the usual suspects lining up to show their solidarity with those on the ship.

    Nothing at all surprising there.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    I gave my reasons for my doubts over an Israel inquiry. Israel is the one making the accusations. I like to know more - the fuller story. I am quite good at judging when I hear everything.
    Does the fact that the groups involved in the "humanitarian flotilla" consider themselves at war with Israel make a difference in your judging? That their stated intention was to cause an incident? That they were the ones with intent?

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Once again, you're basing your objections on the fact that this happened in international waters, which is (IMO) not really the important issue.

    Say that this entire incident had occurred 24 miles from Israel's border. Israel follows your advice and tries to prevent the ships from entering the water by blocking them or asking them to reroute. The ships refuse to be stopped and continue on their course.

    How should they prevent them from going forward?
    It is important in determining the legality of Israel's actions. There are several different questions to be answered about this incident.

    Was it Legal? Probably.
    Was it the boarding justified? Probably.
    Was stopping the flotilla from reaching Gaza the right course? To my mind yes.
    Was the boarding planned well? I suspect that it could have been done better.
    Was Israel's use of force in the boarding appropriate? Dunno yet, not enough information.
    Was the flotilla carrying weapons? Unknown.
    Was the flotilla planned to create an incident? Almost certainly.

    There are lots more.
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