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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

  1. #381
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    It's not just the fact that it was done in international waters, away from Israeli jurisdiction. It's the fact that they even attempted to forcefully board a humanitarian ship instead of rerouting it. There were half a dozen choices that could've been made. Don't blame me because Israel chose the most stupid one.
    I'm not blaming you for anything.

    How exactly should they have rerouted it? I'm under the impression that they told the convoy repeatedly that it would not be able to enter and that the convoy repeatedly told them to sit and spin. Everyone involved knew that they were not going to let themselves be rerouted except through the use of force, which is exactly why I have little sympathy for these people. They fully anticipated this type of incident.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    This isn't really an argument against what happened. If I refuse to sign a treaty that would limit my actions, that doesn't mean that I can't continue to do everything that I was able to to in the absence of the treaty.
    I realize it's not an argument against what happened. It is an argument against stating that Israel acted according to international law. In this case at least, since they didn't sign the treaty, they can't act according to international law. That's all I'm trying to say, that and the fact that they can't call upon international law to in any way legitimize what they did.

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Unless you can show that this treaty gave additional authority to those who signed it, then the fact that Israel didn't sign this treaty doesn't mean much of anything.
    The treaty is designed to authorize certain types of behavior and limit or eliminate others.

    Israel, apparently not wanting to be bound by the treaty, didn't sign it. That's their right. They cannot, however, act as if their actions are legitimized by the treaty they haven't signed.
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    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    But hey, I am always like that. People are always innocent with me till proven guilty. One I can remember was a school caretaker arrested for the murder of two young girls here. He was not guilty to me but as the trial went on he definitely became guilty to me, as indeed he was.
    Then why do you not assume the innocence of the Israelis?

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I realize it's not an argument against what happened. It is an argument against stating that Israel acted according to international law. In this case at least, since they didn't sign the treaty, they can't act according to international law. That's all I'm trying to say, that and the fact that they can't call upon international law to in any way legitimize what they did.



    The treaty is designed to authorize certain types of behavior and limit or eliminate others.

    Israel, apparently not wanting to be bound by the treaty, didn't sign it. That's their right. They cannot, however, act as if their actions are legitimized by the treaty they haven't signed.
    Treaties are not the foundations of international law, they are modifications to a pre-existing backdrop of customary law. The fact that a country refuses to sign treaties dealing with a particular field of law does not mean that it cannot act in accordance with international law - it can simply abide by those principles of customary law.

    If Israel did not sign this treaty, it cannot say that its actions are legitimized by the treaty itself. However, I haven't seen anything to indicate that that's what they are claiming. Regardless of whether they signed the treaty, they can claim that their actions are in accordance with customary norms of international law. They can even refer to the treaty's language as a reference for what that customary law entails.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  5. #385
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Then why do you not assume the innocence of the Israelis?
    THat might require some real dedication to a principle rather than mere posturing.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The standard applies to "neutral waters." Neutral waters are defined as "the internal waters, territorial sea, and, where applicable, the archipelagic waters, of neutral States." Was the flotilla in Lebanese or Egyptian waters at the time of the incident? There is no evidence that it was in the waters of any other state. Hence, the visit/inspection was lawful.
    The standard applies to international waters, not neutral waters.

    UNCLOS and Agreement on Part XI - Preamble and frame index
    Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

    (a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

    (i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

    (ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

    (b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

    (c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    They can't invoke international law if they haven't signed the treaty that defined the law.
    The Law of the Sea Convention (LOSC) is based on principles of international law that go as far back as the Hague Conventions. That Israel didn't sign the Convention does not mean that it lacks such jurisdiction as exists under international law. In short, while Israel cannot invoke the LOSC, it most definitely can invoke international law and the general principles relevant to the incident in question.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I'm not blaming you for anything.

    How exactly should they have rerouted it? I'm under the impression that they told the convoy repeatedly that it would not be able to enter and that the convoy repeatedly told them to sit and spin. Everyone involved knew that they were not going to let themselves be rerouted except through the use of force, which is exactly why I have little sympathy for these people. They fully anticipated this type of incident.
    By blocking their movement from entering Gaza's territorial waters. In international waters, they have no authority over them and cannot ask them to reroute.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Then why do you not assume the innocence of the Israelis?
    I gave my reasons for my doubts over an Israel inquiry. Israel is the one making the accusations. I like to know more - the fuller story. I am quite good at judging when I hear everything. I have been quite right before about people who were indeed innocent and sent to jail but then years later got out on appeal.

    Here is a picture where you can see someone swiping at a soldier with a metal bar
    Israel releases footage of resistance to aid boat storming | News.com.au

    but I also need to know why the person did this.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    The standard applies to international waters, not neutral waters.

    UNCLOS and Agreement on Part XI - Preamble and frame index
    The standard you quote concerns only piracy. It does not concern the rights of states to inspect/visit ships. Enforcement of a blockade, even if one disagrees profoundly with the blockade, is not the same thing as piracy any less than a police officer's shooting a suspect who attacks him/her is not the same thing as a criminal's attacking a police officer.

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