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Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

That's their justification for killing 16 unarmed civillians in international waters?!?! BS

Where was this outrage after the North Koreans committed an act of war on the South Korean vessel? God bless Isreal
 
Expressing regrets is one thing, not allowing collective punishment and disproportionate use of force is another.

What do you mean by "disproportionate use of force"? So because they had knives and metal poles that means the Israeli's must ration themselves to roughly 2 shots per person? I say they didn't use enough if those scum are still breathing. What about when "peaceful" humanitarian aid workers lynch a soldier? What about the disproportionate criticism of Israel? Is that not wrong too?
 
Not anger, just a shrug of the shoulders.

And your defense for the making of a generalization is..?
I was especially surprised by your reaction because most of the people who thanked that post are not pro-Israelis.
 
Expressing regrets is one thing, not allowing collective punishment and disproportionate use of force is another.

Neither were allowed.
Sending soldiers equipped with paintball guns is not using disproportionate force.
There are many voices in Israel calling right now for an inquiry, to find out why the **** were the soldiers not equipped with assault rifle if they were stepping into a war-zone.

The account of one of the soldiers was especially disturbing. At some part in his account he was saying "My hands were empty, and they came for war".
 
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Sad that the Israeli government did not notice what this was all about, a media stunt..and we fell right for it.

Hopefully people will get to see the truth quicker using the internet :) so that the media wont screw their heads up ^^

And lets hope that the next fleet does not get so luck ( i.e no one killed and no media mindeffin everyone ) :)
 
And just you dare say something about Spain(When you're actually saying something about Europe)...

You have both tried to rubbish Europe in general and Spain in particular on several occasions during prior engagements with me. Unlike you, I can recognise the positives and the negatives of my country and my continent. I don't see every criticism of Spain or Europe as an attack on their very continued existence. I don't think the either the EU or Spain is perfect and I think both can be criticised openly and frankly without necessarily resorting to claims of racism or prejudice, even if those are the motivating factors of the attacks. I think you both got involved in the thread attacking Spain for Ceuta and Melilla, didn't you?

Most importantly, unlike you two, I don't act as cheerleader for a régime no matter what excesses it engages in. I woud be more disposed to taking your opinions seriously had I read a single post by either of you making the mildest criticism of the actions of the state of Israel against the Palestinians. I've been here a few months now and I've never read any such critique. I could list a few of my own posts in support of Israel, however. I could link to even more that are critical of Hamas, Islamists and anti-semites too.
 
An appeal to prejudice does not show "common sense".

Yes, it does. To assume that those associated with the boats have motive to lie and distort information but then to completely and utterly ignore Israel's motive to do the same is idiotic and illogical, the antithesis from common sense.

Is Israel MORE believable at this point in my mind? Definitely. But I don't believe their absolute angels and I don't completely ignore the notion of potentially putting out misleading, manipulated, or incomplete information in hopes of improving their position in the matter.

Neither does the acceptance of politically motivated second hand accounts and carefully edited footage when the raw footage is quite redily available.

I thought, from what was said in this thread even by you I believe, that the raw footage ISN'T available, that Israel wouldn't release it so we didn't see their tactics? If I'm wrong in that understanding, np, I'll have to try and find the footage once I'm home and have access to video.

And after you laughly try to lecture me about appealing to prejudice you immedietely use the same appeal in discrediting the other side. Yes, they had definite motivations for their own self interests in their given accounts...so does Israel. One is not black as night and the other white as wind driven snow.

And, of course, I would be remiss were I to fail to mention once again the logical fallacy of believing something just because all one's little mates believe it, and that belief is based upon nothing but the enormous numerical advantage of those wishing to engineer opinion in their favor.

What the **** are you even talking about here?
 
Israel has just allowed and transferred into Gaza the entire of the ship's humanitarian aid cargo, which, mind you, is no more than two thirds of what Israel enters into the Gaza Strip weekly.

Which is still only a quarter of what the UN says Gaza needs... So Israel lets one or two boatloads in this week - what happens next week when Gaza is back to the absolute bare minimum allowed in?

From Reuters:

Note that Reuters didn't report that Israel had interpreted the video that showed the clubbing and stabbing of two marines. Reuters mentioned what the video showed. Hence, on the issue as to whether the Israelis were attacked with knives, the answer is that they were.

The other issue cited by a TV analyst is quite disturbing. If, in fact it is true, it indicates that at least some of the individuals on the ship had deadly intent.

As noted previously, the investigation will be crucial. Those on the ship who engaged in violence should be prosecuted. Until the facts have been established, only those who clearly lack material knowledge and those who had no role in the violence should be released. The remainder should be detained until the facts have been established, with innocent ones being released, and the others prosecuted appropriately.

Don, it's equally important that Israel release footage of when and how the Israeli soldiers opened fire.

j-mac Gaza has tunnels through to Egypt where they smuggle every day. If they wanted weapons they would use the tunnels.

Alexa, the tunnels are controlled by Hamas apparently, they use the tunnels to smuggle in weapons and high value items. Ordinary Gazans have to make do with whatever Israel allows in. As a result - further "collective punishment" - not just by Israel limiting supplies but also by Hamas who control what goes in and out.
 
You have both tried to rubbish Europe in general and Spain in particular on several occasions during prior engagements with me.
I reject that claim.
Unlike you, I can recognise the positives and the negatives of my country and my continent.
I reject that too. :2razz:
I don't see every criticism of Spain or Europe as an attack on their very continued existence.
Obviously I find that to be false.
I don't think the either the EU or Spain is perfect and I think both can be criticised openly and frankly without necessarily resorting to claims of racism or prejudice, even if those are the motivating factors of the attacks.
Maybe, maybe not.
I think you both got involved in the thread attacking Spain for Ceuta and Melilla, didn't you?
Nope, that would be incorrect.
Most importantly, unlike you two, I don't act as cheerleader for a régime no matter what excesses it engages in.
Me neither.
Who's the third guy? Gardener ain't no Israeli, but seems like you really have your own definition for who's an Israeli.
I woud be more disposed to taking your opinions seriously had I read a single post by either of you making the mildest criticism of the actions of the state of Israel against the Palestinians. I've been here a few months now and I've never read any such critique. I could list a few of my own posts in support of Israel, however. I could link to even more that are critical of Hamas, Islamists and anti-semites too.
You haven't found such post because you weren't looking for one.

Clearly your issue is not with me personally, as this post of yours is proving.
 
Perhaps its time the people of gaza try and stand up..I bet you they outnumber Hamas and would get support form Israel..

Directed @ Infinite Chaos :)
 
I was especially surprised by your reaction because most of the people who thanked that post are not pro-Israelis.

That doesn't mean it was funny. How many times have we seen photoshop montages of political leaders superimposed over the Titanic poster? It might have been slighlty funny had it been well done and had used the instantly recognisable face of Ahmadinejad. I recognised R.T. Erdoğan, but who was the other one? Khamenei? Don't think so, I've never seen a photo of him without a turban. My criticism isn't political, it's comedical.
 
Israel has just allowed and transferred into Gaza the entire of the ship's humanitarian aid cargo, which, mind you, is no more than two thirds of what Israel enters into the Gaza Strip weekly.

The entirety of the ships' cargo? So, no weapons cache? No bomb-making equipment?
 
Which is still only a quarter of what the UN says Gaza needs... So Israel lets one or two boatloads in this week - what happens next week when Gaza is back to the absolute bare minimum allowed in?
So the UN says.
Anyway if we are to stay on-topic I must point towards the fact that the shipment was carrying about two thirds of what Israel brings into Gaza every week.
 
The entirety of the ships' cargo? So, no weapons cache? No bomb-making equipment?


they did find premade weapons and supply for rockets, which they took out and the rest they gave to Gaza
 
The entirety of the ships' cargo? So, no weapons cache? No bomb-making equipment?

Obviously Israel didn't let in the boxes of cold weapons.
I assume that you're of course against it?
You believe that every Gazan should have a long knife in his kitchen, so he can cut his T-bone steaks efficiently, no?
 
That doesn't mean it was funny. How many times have we seen photoshop montages of political leaders superimposed over the Titanic poster? It might have been slighlty funny had it been well done and had used the instantly recognisable face of Ahmadinejad. I recognised R.T. Erdoğan, but who was the other one? Khamenei? Don't think so, I've never seen a photo of him without a turban. My criticism isn't political, it's comedical.

No comment for the generalization you've made?
 
I reject that claim.
I reject that too. :2razz:
Obviously I find that to be false.
Maybe, maybe not.
Nope, that would be incorrect.
Me neither.
Who's the third guy? Gardener ain't no Israeli, but seems like you really have your own definition for who's an Israeli.
You haven't found such post because you weren't looking for one.

Clearly your issue is not with me personally, as this post of yours is proving.

My point is that once you turn the debate towards attacking your opponent, as you and Gardener both have done on this thread, the poo flies both ways. It has nothing to do with your nationality, as you say, Gardener isn't Israeli... and I'm not Spanish. Let's just leave this little exchange to one side and continue with the debate, ignoring the perceived prejudices of one another if we can.

I'll try if you will.
 
How do you view those who tried to get around the blockades of WW2 or even the blockade by the USSR of Berlin? (Both times, US forces were heavily involved in getting supplies through the blockades)

I don't know...

Did Germany or the USSR give them options of allowing them to peacefully take the cargo past the blockaid after a check to make sure there was nothing other than truly humanatarian aid was present?

Did they go about it expecting to be shocked and create an incident if the blockaid was enforced, or did they come prepared for that situation and fully acknowledged it?

From my understanding, neither was the case. In both cases the US was attempting to bring items that those countries did not want in the country, so the option of peacefully doing it is negated. However, knowing they're bringing things that are unwanted through the blockaid they sent people with either the proper protection should the blockaid be enforced or with understanding that they weren't innocent bystanders if the blockaid was enforced.

Here's the funny thing...

I have little issue with the other 5 boats on the surface of what we know (without delving into assumptions). They wanted to get past the blockaid to prove a point and/or to deliver their aid, but once they were stopped...as they had to know they were going to be...they submitted to the authority and to the result they knew was extremely likely. If they had somehow managed to "sneak" through and actually make the drop and it was legitimate humanatarian aid you wouldn't see me shed a tear or speak a bad word about them.

My issue is with the boat whose intent was clearly first and foremost proving a point and making a international incident to embarass Israel far more than it was to provide any kind of "aid". The boat who intended to break the blockaid and knew that there was an extremely high likelihood of being bored and that, upon that likely action happening, decided to instead of owning up to their attempt and the inevitable results chose to attempt to kill IDF soldiers who were doing their job, all with the seemingly obvious purpose of starting an international incident.

Which, leads me to why they're morons.

If you're attempting to run a blockaid that is routinely successful at what it does and you expect that you're not going to get caught, that you're not going to get boarded, and action isn't going to happen to you...and more so that they're not going to open fire if you start attacking them with metal clubs and knives...then you're an absolute moron.

Somehow, I don't imagine any of the US blockaid runners of WWII or during the cold war were running the blockaids with the notion that they wouldn't be stopped (or just gunned down without anyone even boarding). And I don't remember any of the same kind of pathetic publicity stunts aimed at simply creating an international incident purposefully happening from those incidents, giving no indication that the U.S. was just trying to be douches attempting to enflame a situation for the sake of enflaming it like those here.

As I said...

The people on the ship that is at the heart of this are either Morons who didn't realize they'd get stopped or shot at if they attempting to break the blockaid or attack the soldiers; or their Douches who knew full well that's what would happen and did it specifically to cause an international incident and to make Israel look bad by putting them in a no-win situation.
 
No comment for the generalization you've made?

What generalization? I mused that perhaps the comedic culture of his country wasn't terribly developed, it's hardly a dogmatic statement. Please don't be hyper-sensitive and do feel free to have a go at Spanish, British or general European comedy too, if you feel so moved. We can take the criticism, comedy´s hardly life-or-death, is it?
 
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What generalization? I mused that perhaps the comedic culture of his country wasn't terribly developed, it's hardly a dogmatic statement. Please don't be hyper-sensitive and do feel free to have a go at Spanish, British or general European comedy too, if you feel so moved.

I think that British humor has become repulsive.

What happened to Monty Python and Mr. Bean?
 
-- And if this had happened on a street during the daytime in a planned protest with the proper equipment, I'm sure nobody would have been killed. However, it happened at night, on a boat, with activists attacking out of nowhere as soldiers dropped from a helicoptor one by one --

Some reports I read stated that the flotilla tried to change course so that they would force the confrontation in broad daylight so they could film the Israelis better however the boarding happened in the dark.

"Non-lethal explosion," or in non-spin mode, flashbangs.

If you've had military experience, you'd know the sound. If however you're a civilian and know there are Israeli forces on their way a stun grendae or "flashbang" could sound like gunfire.

-- Do either of you honestly believe that it was happenstance that these people had all these things handy? The knives, the bats, the pipes, the catapults, the slingshots with marbles, etc.?

There's exactly one explanation for why they had all those things at hand that they used as weapons - they planned on using them as weapons, but wanted to be able to make the exact argument you're making right now.

Yet others on this thread have said the flotilla was probably bringing real weapons in. My guess if I were preparing for a fight against military units would be to have more useful weapons than a abseball bat and a few wooden poles. One knife was shown on TV and the firearms used apparently were taken off the Israeli commander that was thrown overboard and another commando.

-- About slingshots: are you considering that as a weapon?!?

I would consider a slingshot a weapon.
 
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