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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

  1. #351
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    The UN considers Gaza still occupied. It is put quite well here


    Is Gaza 'occupied' territory? - CNN.com
    The UN.....
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Seriously...?

    Except one cannot exclude Clause 48:

    48. Vessels listed in paragraph 47 are exempt from attack only if they:

    (a) are innocently employed in their normal role;
    (b) submit to identification and inspection when required...


    The ship in question may not have been "innocently employed in their normal role" as there have been reports that weapons were found on board. We'll see if those reports are confirmed. In addition, the ship's crew engaged in violence in refusing to "submit to...inspection when required." Hence, it lost the protection set forth in Clause 47.
    Incorrect. Israel has no authority to inspect a humanitarian vessel in international waters. If they were in Israeli territorial waters, then legally they had a right to forcefully board the ship. However, they boarded the humanitarian ship in international waters, well out of Israel's jurisdiction.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    Israel is stealing ships and taking the crews hostage with the intention of ransoming them back? LINK?
    I didn't say that, which you know damn well.

    I said they have as much authority to do what they're doing as the Somali pirates have to do what they're doing.

    Nice try with the strawman, though.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  4. #354
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Well it may be technically difficult to describe because you never usually find a city isolated in the world without control of it's airspace, boundaries and even seaport. People have been calling it occupied for years. It may be a hazy one in law. It is certainly under siege.
    Yea, I mean that is the whole legal debate really... is it "occupied" or "under siege." Depending on where you come down on the issue, that has a dramatic impact on how you interpret the legal obligations of the parties involved. At best, it remains open question.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Crunch View Post
    No, this is more refusal on your part to accept international law that has been pointed out to you time after time. You guys are hopeless.
    No, it's refusal on your part to admit that Israel can't invoke international law to justify its actions when it hasn't signed the treaty by which that law was established.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Incorrect. Israel has no authority to inspect a humanitarian vessel in international waters. If they were in Israeli territorial waters, then legally they had a right to forcefully board the ship. However, they boarded the humanitarian ship in international waters, well out of Israel's jurisdiction.
    So you're telling me that if this scenario had played out identically, but 24 miles from Israel's coast, you and everyone else who's up in arms about this would have no problem with what happened?

    Somehow I doubt that it's the distance from shore that is causing all the agitation.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post

    Except one cannot exclude Clause 48:

    48. Vessels listed in paragraph 47 are exempt from attack only if they:

    (a) are innocently employed in their normal role;
    (b) submit to identification and inspection when required...


    The ship in question may not have been "innocently employed in their normal role" as there have been reports that weapons were found on board.
    We'll see if those reports are confirmed.
    Here is the problem Don. Who is being responsible for finding all this out? Israel obviously is one of the parties involved. Is there any way to have an unbiased investigation? I doubt it.


    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    In addition, the ship's crew engaged in violence in refusing to "submit to...inspection when required." Hence, it lost the protection set forth in Clause 47.
    This would of course depend on whether an unbiased investigation decided they had a need to submit to people descending on them out of helicopters.

    You know a lot depends on what really did happen and I do not have a clue. However though it is becoming much less usual in the worLd now, resistance is something which imo has held the world to good many times. Even when not successful, it has led to change.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    There is no such thing as acquiring territory from winning a war. I thought you actually knew a miniscule amount of international law, but I see I was clearly mistaken.
    Try again.

    Myth

    "According to Security Council Resolution 242, Israel’s acquisition of territory through the 1967 war is ‘inadmissible.'"

    Fact

    On November 22, 1967, the UN Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 242, establishing the principles that were to guide the negotiations for an Arab-Israeli peace settlement. This resolution was a tortuously negotiated compromise between competing proposals.

    The first point addressed by the resolution is the “inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war.” Some people take this to mean that Israel is required to withdraw from all the territories it captured. On the contrary, the reference clearly applies only to an offensive war. If not, the resolution would provide an incentive for aggression. If one country attacks another, and the defender repels the attack and acquires territory in the process, the former interpretation would require the defender to return all the land it took. Thus, aggressors would have little to lose because they would be insured against the main consequence of defeat.

    Myth and Fact: Can Territory Be Acquired in War?
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Well it may be technically difficult to describe because you never usually find a city isolated in the world without control of it's airspace, boundaries and even seaport. People have been calling it occupied for years. It may be a hazy one in law. It is certainly under siege.
    And will be until they quit trying to kill Israelis.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Here is the problem Don. Who is being responsible for finding all this out? Israel obviously is one of the parties involved. Is there any way to have an unbiased investigation? I doubt it.
    Unfortunately, a whole lot of international law is essentially the foundation by which:
    • Victorious nations can justify their actions
    • Vanquished nations can accuse the victors and justify their insurgencies
    • Bystanders can criticize either or both sides


    There isn't a sovereign nation on the face of the earth that would willingly submit to an "unbiased" third party.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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