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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

  1. #1461
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    We live in a different world Apocalypse. You could never see the humanitarian need because for you it does not exist till they are dead. I am truly shocked by your response.
    I would never see a humanitarian crisis until such crisis would actually exist.
    I do believe however that there is a need to supply Gaza with humanitarian aid, contrary to your accusations.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I would never see a humanitarian crisis until such crisis would actually exist.
    I do believe however that there is a need to supply Gaza with humanitarian aid, contrary to your accusations.
    60/70% of children suffering from malnutrition, poor water, electricity regularly cut, medical supplies short, 40% + unemployed, most who are employed employed in black market activity and you see no humanitarian crisis?

    True, I know you would allow them access to the minimum number of calories necessary for survival but I think you are 'normalising the unthinkable'.

    My wish remains that the Gaza port is opened under EU supervision, even though I read yesterday that Israel had said no to this, and that the Gaza people may start to thrive through the oil found off their coast which they have not yet had access to.

    Oh and just for something different. Here is a picture of a Turk helping an injured soldier on board the Mavi Marmara

    IDF soldier taken care of by Turkish activits on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    So you're basically agreeing with the statements you were responding to?
    Because nothing that you've said contradicts them one way or another.
    Already explained. It only took 3-4 posts for you to catch up. Well done.
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1058794455
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Well Mr Chomsky, the footage published by the IDF, the one you're trying so hard to ignore, shows the activists attacking the soldiers the moment they've boarded the ship.
    They were grouping up at the top deck and were waiting with knives and crowbars for the arrival of the soldiers, certainly not looking like they were just shot at or are being shot at.
    Where have I ignored the footage? I know the footage released by the IDF (the night vision IR movie) starts with the attacks on the soldiers – the bit I’m waiting for you to catch up on is the fact that the IDF has all the protesters’ cameras and equipment. Thus we have no other versions as the IDF haven’t released any other footage from before the attacks on the soldiers.
    I’m guessing I’ll have to repeat this in at least 2 more posts before it sinks in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I believe that is irrelevant.
    Let me make this clear to you:
    By taking the words of the activists for granted(=as facts) you're admitting to a deep agenda-motivated dishonesty and irrationality.
    I do not see any sane reason to take the word of those who came there for the sake of anti-Israeli propaganda, definitely not as they have no evidence to back their claims and most definitely not as they were caught lying more than once.
    Guess what Einstein? I’m repeating myself already – I’l quote rather than type it again.
    Quote Originally Posted by explaining yet again why there is no counter evidence
    Where have I ignored the footage? I know the footage released by the IDF (the night vision IR movie) starts with the attacks on the soldiers – the bit I’m waiting for you to catch up on is the fact that the IDF has all the protesters’ cameras and equipment. Thus we have no other versions as the IDF haven’t released any other footage from before the attacks on the soldiers.
    I’m guessing I’ll have to repeat this in at least 4 more posts before it sinks in.
    [
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    My thoughts on you.
    Reductio ad anti-Semitism
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I've never heard any other poster saying such things.
    You've seen a poster who's an anti-Israeli being called an anti-Semite.
    That by no means implies that being anti-Israeli means you're an anti-Semite.
    Reductio ad anti-Semitism
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Those bodies are wrong when they're wrong and right when they're right, enough said.
    And all of them are wrong on this one matter. All based in different countries with their own observers on the grounds.
    Yeah, right….
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    ”According to reports, people were attacked and were beaten on other ships as well" = depending entirely on the witnesses words and referring to the incidents as facts, using the term "according to reports", implying that it's a news report and not a questionable witness account by one of the activists.
    Yes, I’m referring to the reports with links to the BBC pages. You obviously didn’t look (yet again) because of course – you know best, being the resident IDF spokesperson here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    You're saying that Gaza has no jobs, no industries, what's not.
    So in return I've supplied you with an example of a hotel in Gaza.
    Now are you going to say that this hotel is the only place to find jobs at besides at the terrorist organization of Hamas?
    Until when are you going to make those baseless statements and believe that you'd be able to get away with it?
    No, I didn’t. Post 1431 – You’ve lied and substituted my “many” for your “any”
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1058793003
    Will you do the honorable thing and withdraw your lie or do we go around yet another set of posts before you own up to your reading comprehension failure?
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    40 seconds in average.
    Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Now you're just making a fool out of yourself.
    I was not comparing their power but has laid an analogy based on your claim that if a weapon doesn't kill many it means that it is not a "killing weapon".
    I thought I asked for where I said it wasn’t a “killing weapon?”

    If not, please find it for me. I recall saying it was more of a (note that I’m repeating this for the umpteenth time) they’re more of a “psychological rather than physical threat.”

    Don’t worry, I’m patient – I know you and your friends will eventually get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Once more, you're making a fool out of yourself.
    Let's lay out the differences between the government statement and your statement here, shall we now?

    The government statement refers to the actual result.
    The actual result of those rockets is more of a psychological damage than a physical damage.

    Your statement claims that the rockets are not "killing weapons", referring to the physically damaging potentiality of the weapon by itself.
    I’ll ask again – where did I say they are not killing weapons? “StephenA59 got it first time when I replied him – you’re taking a little longer for the lightbulbs to go off but I can wait.
    Here, I’ll even post my original statement to help. Do you want me to use crayon for my words next time?
    Quote Originally Posted by me
    The blockade has not stopped the rocket launches – besides which, the rocket launches are more of a psychological weapon than a real weapon. The current blockade is simply an extension of the one started after the Second Intifada of 2000-2001. In 10 years that some form of blockade or restriction has been in place – it hasn't stopped weapons being fired at Israel.
    I’m sure one of your nice Moderator friends watching my every word for can explain it for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Why I'll never even dream about calling you an anti-Semite, since I do not believe that you are.
    Once more, you've drawn the conclusion entirely on your own, which should really be enough to deliver the message.
    Reductio ad anti-Semitism

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I'm referring you to the statements above the question mark.
    The flotilla raid, as far as international law is concerned, was fully legit.
    The Q&A of Reuters agrees with me, as I've shown you, so I do not feel the need to waste further time debating over the obvious truth.
    I couldn't find any real news source (Reuters, AP, etc) that says the Israeli actions were against international law.

    I do not doubt for a moment that you too know that the Israeli raid was done fully in accordance with the international law, yet you just cannot admit to being wrong.
    And one last time – the links were to differing opinions around the world. Since this is at the root of current problems in Gaza and Israel – I don’t see anyone on this forum clearing that up.
    Which reminds me – very early on – I originally said “it doesn’t matter anyway as whether the raid was legal or not and whether the blockade is legal or not – International Law can not be enforced and even if it could – the US has Israel’s back”
    Nothing has changed my opinion since then – even going round the houses with you.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Over 100 countries have made a formal statement recognizing the State of Palestine.

    I noticed, though, that you didn't answer my question. What and who defines a sovereign State?

    ...

    Montevideo is the capital of Urugay. The signatories were not all from South America. They were from the Americas as a whole. The United States was also a signatory.

    What does that have to do with the Middle East? I think qualifications for statehood has a lot to do with the Middle East, especially when the discussion is related to Palestine.
    I still think this has no bearing or precedence in regards to the Palestinian people claiming Israel as their state. I think the Balfour agreement carries much more weight. Besides some of the criteria that is required or expected by the Montevideo Uruguay agreement hasn't been met. It also could be considered a micro nation perhaps and if so also hasn't met the requirements. That said Israel out weighs and requirements as to be recognized by this agreement than any Palestinians people could muster, I believe this isn't the avenue to pursue. Palestine will have to become a state and to do so will have to recognize Israel and make peace. As long as the Arab community namely Hamas rules the roost, this will never be achieved. A interesting read is the Origins of Palestine and the Palestinian people, strange how they have become to be considered Arabs....they are not or at least their ancestry isn't.

    Over 100 countries have made a formal statement recognizing the State of Palestine.
    When did this happen and was it before Israel was official recognized as a state or after. The Palestinian territory was recognized for awhile while under British rule but it was not a state or country. You can even do a world atlas research stretching back 2000 years or more and you will not find a country called Palestine.

    The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Roman "Palaestina"
    Last edited by deltabtry; 06-08-10 at 11:13 PM.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    I still think this has no bearing or precedence in regards to the Palestinian people claiming Israel as their state.
    Majority of Palestinians accept the two-state solution. The above statement is false.
    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    I think the Balfour agreement carries much more weight.
    Britain already declared that the Balfour Declaration ceased to become Mandate policy when they issued the White Paper of 1939.
    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    Besides some of the criteria that is required or expected by the Montevideo Uruguay agreement hasn't been met. It also could be considered a micro nation perhaps and if so also hasn't met the requirements.
    What criteria/requirements does Palestine not fulfill? They have a permanent population. A defined territory. They have a government. And they have entered into relations with other States. Make notice how the Montevideo Convention makes no comments relating to borders.
    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    That said Israel out weighs and requirements as to be recognized by this agreement than any Palestinians people could muster, I believe this isn't the avenue to pursue.
    No one said Israel did not meet the qualifications of a State...?
    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    Palestine will have to become a state and to do so will have to recognize Israel and make peace.
    Is that one of the requirements of the Montevideo Convention?
    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    As long as the Arab community namely Hamas rules the roost, this will never be achieved. A interesting read is the Origins of Palestine and the Palestinian people, strange how they have become to be considered Arabs....they are not or at least their ancestry isn't.
    What are their ancestry then? Caucasians? Africans? Turks? Arabs have had a majority presence in Palestine for over a millennium.
    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    When did this happen and was it before Israel was official recognized as a state or after.
    ... Why not read the link?
    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    The Palestinian territory was recognized for awhile while under British rule but it was not a state or country. You can even do a world atlas research stretching back 2000 years or more and you will not find a country called Palestine.
    State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The U.S. State Department Digest of International Law says that the terms of the Treaty of Lausanne provided for the application of the principles of state succession to the "A" Mandates. The Treaty of Versailles (1920) provisionally recognized the former Ottoman communities as independent nations. It also required Germany to recognize the disposition of the former Ottoman territories and to recognize the new states laid down within their boundaries. The Treaty of Lausanne required the newly created states that acquired the territory to pay annuities on the Ottoman public debt, and to assume responsibility for the administration of concessions that had been granted by the Ottomans. A dispute regarding the status of the territories was settled by an Arbitrator appointed by the Council of the League of Nations. It was decided that Palestine and Transjordan were newly created states according to the terms of the applicable post-war treaties. In its Judgment No. 5, The Mavrommatis Palestine Concessions, the Permanent Court of International Justice also decided that Palestine was responsible as the successor state for concessions granted by Ottoman authorities. The Courts of Palestine and Great Britain decided that title to the properties shown on the Ottoman Civil list had been ceded to the government of Palestine as an allied successor state.
    Quote Originally Posted by deltabtry View Post
    The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Roman "Palaestina"
    It's Filastin. And I already knew this 3 decades ago.

  6. #1466
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    It is not ANY criticism of Israel that is antisemitic in nature -- it is the completely demonizing nature of the points of view that are so biased against Jews that no other explanation could possibly suffice by way of definition.
    Not true. Most of the people who slag off Jews about Palestine are pro-Arab and therefore cannot be anti-semetic.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    I stand by my position but shouldn't have resorted to malice and contempt in my posts since page 110+ so I would like to apologise for the tone of my posts to Apocalypse.

    I'm not familiar with the norms for issuing an apology on this forum - whether to create a new thread or post it elsewhere so I'm attaching it to the thread where I offended.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Majority of Palestinians accept the two-state solution.

    Then why do they put into power leaders that reject any sort of solution short of dissolving Israel then?


    j-mac
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Majority of Palestinians accept the two-state solution. The above statement is false.

    Britain already declared that the Balfour Declaration ceased to become Mandate policy when they issued the White Paper of 1939.

    What criteria/requirements does Palestine not fulfill? They have a permanent population. A defined territory. They have a government. And they have entered into relations with other States. Make notice how the Montevideo Convention makes no comments relating to borders.

    No one said Israel did not meet the qualifications of a State...?

    Is that one of the requirements of the Montevideo Convention?

    What are their ancestry then? Caucasians? Africans? Turks? Arabs have had a majority presence in Palestine for over a millennium.

    ... Why not read the link?

    State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    It's Filastin. And I already knew this 3 decades ago.
    Degreez I haven't forgotten, I'll reply over the weekend.

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