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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    It is not ANY criticism of Israel that is antisemitic in nature -- it is the completely demonizing nature of the points of view that are so biased against Jews that no other explanation could possibly suffice by way of definition.
    And that I fully agree with.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I have very divided feelings about the work of Nick Cohen. He used to be strongly socialist in his philosophy and as recently as 2002, he wrote an article "Why it is right to be anti-American", arguing that US foreign policy had a part to play in the rising clash between Islam and the West. All this changed with the invasion of Iraq and what he saw as the capitulation of the liberal left in the face of the common cause emerging between the left and radical Islam. This new position is spelled out in his book, "What's Left". It's one of the most interesting writings of the past few years, I was stimulated and appalled by it in equal measure. He accepts the term neo-con but maintains a much more interesting and broad set of positions on social and economic issues than you'd normally expect from a commentator of such vehemence.

    He raises many issues in it that really demand to be taken seriously by liberals and leftists, such as:
    • Why do supposedly progressive forces make apologies for Islamist extremists who represent every rancid, anti-liberal position that progressives hold dear?
    • Why do liberals support the repression of women/gays/ethnic and religious minorities in conservative societies whilst still pretending to hold these rights as being fundamental in their own societies?
    • Why do left liberals spend so much time attacking Israel and so little attacking Sudan, Burma, Iran etc etc?


    There are many more, but these are legitimate questions,

    and when those same questions are raised in this forum, they are met with nothing but derision.


    There is a big difference between being a liberal and being a reactionary leftist. A liberal bases his or her views upon liberal values, wheras the reactionary simply makes common cause with those who share their hate. In some cases, this can make for some very strange bedfellows, indeed, such as women or gay people supporting Hamas or Hizb'allah. At some point, poeple need to ask themselves the question "Who are these poeple? What are THEIR values", and "Do I really share those values?" If not, then people need to seriously reevaluate the nature of the dogma they repeat so thoughtlessly. Allowing yourself to become a useful idiot for the very political philosophy that would persecute you if it ever came to dominate your own society is not particularly wise.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post

    You're saying that Gaza has no jobs, no industries, what's not.
    So in return I've supplied you with an example of a hotel in Gaza.
    Now are you going to say that this hotel is the only place to find jobs at besides at the terrorist organization of Hamas?
    Until when are you going to make those baseless statements and believe that you'd be able to get away with it?
    You do yourself no favour Apocalypse in coming out with propaganda that is well documented and accessible to us all now we have access to the internet. I first read of this on Haaretz last week but it is the same as what the Guardian speaks of

    A similar press office email was sent to foreign journalists two weeks ago, recommending a gourmet restaurant and Olympic-sized swimming pool in Gaza to highlight Israel's claim there is no humanitarian crisis there. Journalists who complained the email was in poor taste were told they had "no sense of humour".
    Israel forced to apologise for YouTube spoof of Gaza flotilla | World news | The Guardian

    You cannot bluff away the deep humanitarian need there by just picking up the latest piece of propaganda. The need has been going on for much longer and is getting worse.

    We for instance saw on our tv's this very week how people who have been in business for years are going out of business while at the same time those who use the tunnel become more wealthy.

    Perhaps they are eating at the roots club. The 60-70% of children suffering malnutrition are not.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    You do yourself no favour Apocalypse in coming out with propaganda that is well documented and accessible to us all now we have access to the internet. I first read of this on Haaretz last week but it is the same as what the Guardian speaks of



    Israel forced to apologise for YouTube spoof of Gaza flotilla | World news | The Guardian

    You cannot bluff away the deep humanitarian need there by just picking up the latest piece of propaganda. The need has been going on for much longer and is getting worse.

    We for instance saw on our tv's this very week how people who have been in business for years are going out of business while at the same time those who use the tunnel become more wealthy.

    Perhaps they are eating at the roots club. The 60-70% of children suffering malnutrition are not.
    alexa, do notice that your link has not much to do with what you're arguing about.
    This link is about an Israeli official sending by mistake a satirical video on the flotilla as one of the evidences he supplied foreign nations with.
    Sure it has Israel stating that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza but you could indeed find an article that's speaking about that specifically.

    And I completely agree with the statement by the Israeli officials - there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
    Sure, people depend there way too much on humanitarian aid, but there is no humanitarian crisis in the area.
    There is no starvation and there are no plagues.

    While international aid agencies say there is no starvation or acute medical crisis there, malnutrition is creeping up, water treatment and sewage are problematic and the economy has been almost entirely shut down by the blockade, which is also enforced by Egypt. The United States and other world powers say that the situation is untenable and that a new approach must be found.
    Israeli Military Boards Gaza Aid Ship - NYTimes.com

    That's from a very recent article, I believe.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    and when those same questions are raised in this forum, they are met with nothing but derision.
    I don't believe that's true. What I believe is regularly treated with scepticism, "derision" if you insist, is the assumption that to show support for the parlous situation the Palestinian people find themselves in, and criticising or even questioning Israeli policy towards them, is tantamount to siding with the most rancid, extreme and illiberal stances of others that might support the Palestinian situation. Supporting the suffering Palestinian and buying into the Islamist "project" are two completely different matters. I don't believe that you (and many other regular posters) can make that distinction, or choose not to in the interests of political expediency.

    There is a big difference between being a liberal and being a reactionary leftist. A liberal bases his or her views upon liberal values, wheras the reactionary simply makes common cause with those who share their hate. In some cases, this can make for some very strange bedfellows, indeed, such as women or gay people supporting Hamas or Hizb'allah. At some point, poeple need to ask themselves the question "Who are these poeple? What are THEIR values", and "Do I really share those values?" If not, then people need to seriously reevaluate the nature of the dogma they repeat so thoughtlessly. Allowing yourself to become a useful idiot for the very political philosophy that would persecute you if it ever came to dominate your own society is not particularly wise.
    Well, firstly, Nick Cohen and many others do not exonerate western liberals from criticism. He does distinguish between 'liberal' and 'leftist' positions, but he excoriates both for their attitudes towards Israel and Islam for different, but equally serious, failings. I agree with him, in part, in his issues with both. I take issue with him, in part, similarly.

    To find common cause with supporters of the Palestinian people, I repeat, is not necessarily to find common cause with an entire Islamist religious/political agenda. I can find common cause with some neo-cons in their criticism of the retrogressive social agenda of radical and/or conservative Islam and the states that practice it. That does not mean I buy into their ideas of 'exporting democracy', which to me seems to be a policy of imposition of failed neo-liberal capitalism on the entire World. I cannot and will not buy into a concept of the World that is divided between us and them, West and Islam, liberal and authoritarian. I find that too many debaters here reduce the infinite complexity of political debate into this dualist nonsense. I reject that.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    alexa, do notice that your link has not much to do with what you're arguing about.
    This link is about an Israeli official sending by mistake a satirical video on the flotilla as one of the evidences he supplied foreign nations with.
    Sure it has Israel stating that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza but you could indeed find an article that's speaking about that specifically.
    The link Apocalypse includes the quote I gave about foreign journalists being sent two weeks ago details of a hotel in Gaza (the roots club I believe) in order that to try to show there was no humanitarian need in Gaza. When foreign journalists said this was in poor taste Israel accused them of having no humour.

    That was what I was highlighting. That is what you have also done. That is what is in the link I gave you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post

    And I completely agree with the statement by the Israeli officials - there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
    Sure, people depend there way too much on humanitarian aid, but there is no humanitarian crisis in the area.
    There is no starvation and there are no plagues.
    Your own quote
    While international aid agencies say there is no starvation or acute medical crisis there, malnutrition is creeping up, water treatment and sewage are problematic and the economy has been almost entirely shut down by the blockade, which is also enforced by Egypt. The United States and other world powers say that the situation is untenable and that a new approach must be found.
    They aren't starving yet, just fat you say in other threads. Fat little bellies one of the sure signs of malnutrition. I have previously provided links to 60% of the children of Gaza suffer from malnutrition and anemia though I have since found people saying the number is nearer 70%. A significant percentage also suffer stunted growth another clear sign of malnutrition but for you all will be alright untill the world sees these children dying of starvation or of a plague from impure water.

    We live in a different world Apocalypse. You could never see the humanitarian need because for you it does not exist till they are dead. I am truly shocked by your response.
    George Monboit "Neoliberalism is inherently incompatible with democracy, as people will always rebel against the austerity and fiscal tyranny it prescribes. Something has to give, and it must be the people. This is the true road to serfdom: disinventing democracy on behalf of the elite."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    The link Apocalypse includes the quote I gave about foreign journalists being sent two weeks ago details of a hotel in Gaza (the roots club I believe) in order that to try to show there was no humanitarian need in Gaza. When foreign journalists said this was in poor taste Israel accused them of having no humour.
    He didn't read my original link to that article Alexa, no need to think he'll bother this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    -- We live in a different world Apocalypse. You could never see the humanitarian need because for you it does not exist till they are dead. I am truly shocked by your response.
    The Israeli Govt line is that there is no crisis, thus people like Apocalypse will deny forever and a day (while pretending to "seek the truth") anything or any other version of facts could exist.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Thankfully, not all Israelis buy into the notion that any critic of Israel (including Jewish critics) is by definition anti-semitic. ]
    I've read the phrase "reductio ad anti-semitism," very appropriate in this thread. We are seeing the evolution of Goodwin / Godwin's law to envelope anyone daring to discuss the subject of Israel on debate / discussion boards such as this.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Thankfully the majority of the Israelis would tell you that Uri Avnery is an idiot.
    Even more thankfully, you are correct in your assertion that not all Israelis are "buying into the notion that any critic of Israel is by definition anti-semitic", since I for one do not even know one person who follows that line of thought.
    Oh sorry , I should have said ' so anyone who is a critic of Israeli policies is regarded as either anti-semitic or "an idiot". Too funny!

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Oh sorry , I should have said ' so anyone who is a critic of Israeli policies is regarded as either anti-semitic or "an idiot". Too funny!
    Avnery is an idiot, do you want me not to regard to an idiot as an idiot merely because he takes an anti-Israeli position?
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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