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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    So we have two good sources who contradict each other, maybe we should look at how they came by those numbers and see if they are measuring different things. Then we should ask ourselves what question this obesity question is going to answer for us. In other words "so what" if they are fat or not, they certainly arent starving.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Can hardly blame them voting Hamas out of fustration though would rather not make any attempts to justify it since that is not possible.
    Such statements have the ring of "don't blame us, we were only following orders." We're judged by our actions, not by our motives. Otherwise you get the "ends justify the means" argument that so many people use to excuse the violent acts of terrorists.

    If Hamas is a bloody terrorist group that doesn't reflect Palestinian society, then Hamas should be removed before it causes the eventual and inevitable destruction of Gaza. We don't need a million martyrs. Take the dog and pony show somewhere else.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Kaya, you are debating with Grant/Picaro/Ferris. Are you expecting s/he is likely to accept your points?
    Ah... I'll make sure this is my last response to “Agent Ferris” then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    It's got to do with what you said. This situation was completely different from previous humanitarian flotillas. This flotilla wanted a violent confrontation.
    And my point is exactly the same – Ron Prosor (Israeli Ambassador for those who only accept Israeli versions of stories) explained in his article that Israel handled other flotillas differently and those on board that wanted trouble were denied the opportunity and there was no publicity.

    Do you see what he (and I) are getting at?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    -- This is not a psychological weapon the only reason why more Israelis aren't killed is because their homes have to have bomb shelters and they have a early warning mechanism, if they didn't tens of thousands would be killed, if these rockets were fired into the U.S. for or U.K. for example they would result in many many more casualties.
    Continuing to use Israeli only sources – why do you think that the Israeli Minitsry of Defense said in 2006 that Qassam rockets posed more of a “psychological than a physical” threat? Katyusha rockets have a greater range but are still unguided missiles. Nobody can tell where they will land.

    Please ask me for a source.... Please tell me I'm fabricating or anti-semitic for my posts...

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    -- The food stuffs would have made it in, the reason why concrete is banned is because Hamas uses it to create bunkers and tunnels for arms smuggeling. Israel is perfectly justified in not letting in the concrete.
    Not what you originally posted about. You said “If they wanted building materials for housing they should have asked for pre-fab aluminum houses like what the Katrina victims got.

    Prefabs have are banned (the materials could be re-used if Hamas got hold) so handing the aid over wouldn't serve the purpose of raising the profile. Said this previously and repeated for you here.

    I've posted previously that Israel is right to stop concrete as it is also used (with steel) to construct hard launch sites for their rockets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    -- This wasn't just some of the protestors, 3 of the ships were owned and operated by the jihadist affiliated IHH.
    And? There were violent protests on one ship only BUT there was violence from the commandos on more than one ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Palestinians are actually within the top 10 obese peoples in the world. They are not starving.
    Oh dear, and Ethiopians are also up there I guess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Israel allows merchant goods in as well and that is in addittion to the aid that is allowed through.
    Already explained this umpteen times throughout this thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    Don't think I'm without sympathy for Gazans. However, they elected Hamas, they support Hamas
    I'll agree that

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    -- they defend Hamas
    Source?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    -- and ultimately they are responsible for the actions of their leaders. I'm completely familiar with the old shell game of "it's not Palestinians, it's Hamas."
    I don't agree that just as I wouldn't agree any electorate being held responsible for the misdeeds of the leaders they elect.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    -- we should conclude that Hamas is responsible for the suffering of its own people, and conclude that Hamas must be removed by force if necessary in order to free Gaza.
    I totally agree that Hamas is responsible for much of the suffering, it plays as big a part in the internal collective punishment of Gazans as Israel and Egypt do for the external collective punishment – however I don't advocate removing Israel and Egypt by force.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    That is a narrow and convenient view that tries unsuccessfully to shift responsibility. When two countries are at war, do you suppose it is only the governments which oppose each other?
    It is the view that you are trying to impose. It is the same viewpoint bin Laden used when he said American civilians are faIr game because they elect their president. If these two countries are at war, then Israel has no right to complain about rockets being fired into Israel. That is war, after all.
    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    Ironically, it is the Hamas leadership which targets civilians, while Israel does all it can to minimize civilian casualties. Your premise is so absurd as to be laughable. Should we debate whether the sun rises up in the West?
    How many Hamas militants were killed in relation to how many civilians were killed? Israel may not target civilians, but minimizing civilian casualities is a bold claim that is contradicted by their actions.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    It is the view that you are trying to impose. It is the same viewpoint bin Laden used when he said American civilians are faIr game because they elect their president. If these two countries are at war, then Israel has no right to complain about rockets being fired into Israel. That is war, after all.
    Your use of the phrase "fair game" to describe attacks on civilians is banal. And Israel doesn't "complain" about the rockets. You seem to take a somewhat cavalier attitude towards a serious conflict.

    How many Hamas militants were killed in relation to how many civilians were killed? Israel may not target civilians, but minimizing civilian casualities is a bold claim that is contradicted by their actions.
    That we will never know. In prison, nobody is guilty. In Gaza, nobody's a terrorist.

    However I reject that notion that in a war that's been going on for decades between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO/you name it, that the Palestinians just happen to find themselves unluckily caught in the middle.

    And I don't hear anyone being too careful when they accuse "Israel" of genocide. The idea that Israelis are guilty of genocide, while Palestinians are innocent of the actions of their leadership, is laughable.

    And finally, every American has the blood of the Iraq war on his hands. Do you seriously think you can get away with blaming your government? If so then I assume you were out picketing every day on Pennsylvania Avenue. Or perhaps like most Americans, you stayed home and watched the war on CNN.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Source?
    I'm only going to do this once. From now on you can fish for your own links, as you're so fond of saying.

    Abbas bans Hamas police force - Los Angeles Times

    Obviously, the civilian police force defends the Hamas government.

    I don't agree that just as I wouldn't agree any electorate being held responsible for the misdeeds of the leaders they elect.
    How very convenient for the electorate. Ever heard the phrase, "of the people, by the people, for the people?"

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    And I don't hear anyone being too careful when they accuse "Israel" of genocide.
    Could you link to a few posts where anyone has accused Israel of genocide? Do the words 'horse' and 'straw' mean anything to you?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    You probably meant "straw man" or (I guess) Trojan horse. Show me where I accused anyone of anything.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenA59 View Post
    Such statements have the ring of "don't blame us, we were only following orders." We're judged by our actions, not by our motives. Otherwise you get the "ends justify the means" argument that so many people use to excuse the violent acts of terrorists.

    If Hamas is a bloody terrorist group that doesn't reflect Palestinian society, then Hamas should be removed before it causes the eventual and inevitable destruction of Gaza. We don't need a million martyrs. Take the dog and pony show somewhere else.
    Thank you for the dramatics but i think i explained my position already.
    Hamas is not short of money. The Iranian and Syrian regimes fund them. Are you surprised that through social systems and welfare support Hamas has won the hearts of the Palestinians? When you victimize society, and promise to crush the opponent by all means neccessary, society begins to hate the opponent and relish in its demise however violent. Popular support sky rockets for those who have the means and the way to deliver on these promises. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Unjust laws and policies can drive even the most harmonious society to murder. For this reason the statement "ones mans terrorist is another mans hero" rings true in this scenario. In Europe, the right wing nationalist community have not grown, but support for them have. The failure of moderate parties in Gaza because of the lack of actions by the international community to support them have ultimately led to this radicalization.

    Hamas DOES reflect the sad views of Palestinians, but it can be changed easily by changing the conditions and the desperation of the region. Man by nature is not evil.
    Last edited by kaya'08; 06-07-10 at 06:10 AM.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    And even then the absurd prices of basic commodities go beyond what most Palestinians can afford. Computers? Chocolates? Come on. Nobody wants to live like that.
    I agree, but aren't the Palestinians biting the hand that feeds then so to speak. What I am saying is that Israel isn't the provocateur in this conflicts. All the Palestinians have to do is sit down and discuss peace, Israel has already shown that it's willing to concede up to 90 percent of the Palestinians demands.

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