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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Actually, you have tipped your hand and revealed your own fuzzy thinking by using the term, "anti-zionist"- that term, and "anti-semite" are the usual knee jerk calumnies designed to stifle discussion and used by those who have nothing useful to say.

    By almost any measure, the Israeli action was giant cock-up that will undermine Israel's interests- even if you believe it was legitimate act.
    The Israeli action was completely legitimate, there's no "belief" in there, there are laws and there are rules and those were not violated.
    The violent mob's actions are however not legitimate, illegal and repulsive.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Actually, you have tipped your hand and revealed your own fuzzy thinking by using the term, "anti-zionist"- that term, and "anti-semite" are the usual knee jerk calumnies designed to stifle discussion and used by those who have nothing useful to say.

    By almost any measure, the Israeli action was giant cock-up that will undermine Israel's interests- even if you believe it was legitimate act.
    I think the term "antisemitic" covers it pretty well, myeself -- especially when bigoted individuals automatically bring into question the veracity of Jews simply because they are Jews.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I think they're referring to the amount of aid inserted into the Gaza Strip by organizations such as the UN before the blockade, not to the amount of goods imported by the Hamas government before the blockade.
    And this is still worked out to be less than what is required.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Well yeah it's a blockade we're speaking about, certainly it's going to greatly affect the population within the blockaded territory.
    And whether the Geneva Conventions apply or not – it’s a collective punishment of the ordinary Gazans. Hamas gets what it wants through the tunnels, Israel lets in what it decides is the bare minimum and meantime ordinary Gazans are collectively punished by Hamas and the Israeli Govt.
    On top of that, Hamas gets weapons through the tunnels – the point of the sea and border blockade does little to prevent Hamas getting weapons through and only the citizens are really affected.
    I’ve repeated this umpteen times on this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Once more I'd like a reference to those details about the pre-Blockade Gaza Strip.
    I don’t recall you asking me for such before. If you really wanted to – the links to the UN and other food / humanitarian agencies have been posted earlier. I even remember a “save the children” link posted by Alexa to you directly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    That document makes many baseless assumptions.
    For example, it states that because Israel enforces movement restriction on civilians from and into the Gaza Strip it means that Israel seeks to place pressure over the Gazan population and decrease their support for the militants.
    The real reason is more around the threat of militants imposing as civilians getting into and outside the Gaza Strip.
    Sorry but you yourself posted a report / link on Hamas tunnels. You can’t have it both ways - Hamas can get in and out easily and when it wants already – through the tunnels. The only people really blocked are the Gazan population. The blockade is simply for domestic Israeli voting consumption.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    -- Clearly the objective of the blockade is to drastically decrease the power of Hamas, whether by the blockage of weapons or by the blockage of supplies for the constructions of bunkers and rockets.
    As the pro-Govt posters have helpfully pointed out, Hamas has launched thousands of rockets into Israel, the blockade hasn’t stopped this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    The organization claims that Israel has no declared objective - that, once it will be achieved, the blockade could be lifted - and that this somehow causes the blockade to become a collective punishment rather than the cutting of supplies to the terrorist organizations in control of the territory.
    Israel did however inform Hamas that the release of the abducted soldier, Gilad Shalit, would result in the immediate lifting of the blockade - sort of a compriomising by Israel.
    Besides that it is clear that if Hamas revokes terrorism the blockade would immediately end.
    In June 2008, Israel reached a partial ceasefire (tahadiya or "calm") with the Hamas leadership in Gaza, which was mostly respected until November 4, 2008. In exchange for a cessation of armed activity by both sides (not including activities in the West Bank), Israel permitted an approximately 25% increase in the scope of goods permitted to enter Gaza, limited to "humanitarian" goods (food, medicine, some spare parts for infrastructure and generators, animal feed, grocery items, etc.).8 Other harsh restrictions continued, including a total ban on exports and on the movement of people, apart from exceptional humanitarian cases (which themselves have also been restricted).9

    The tahadiya brought a more direct admission by Israel of the nature of its closure of Gaza's borders. Whereas the state had previously made nominal claims that its restrictions stemmed from threats to Gaza's crossings10 or fears that goods entering Gaza could be used for military purposes,11 beginning in the summer of 2008 the State of Israel openly created a direct link between political goals vis-à-vis Hamas and rocket fire by militants on the one hand – and blocking the entrance of even basic humanitarian goods for the civilian population on the other. In response to violations of the ceasefire agreement in the form of rocket fire, Israel regularly closes Gaza's crossings, even to the trickle of humanitarian goods that had been permitted to pass. For example, in late September, Israel blocked the passage of humanitarian goods in response to rocket fire and openly cited the closure as a means of pressuring with Hamas leadership, with whom it is negotiating indirectly for the release of captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit:
    “We are examining the issue, and apparently we will need to reduce the
    scope of goods and thus create pressure on the Hamas organization,
    which is deliberately failing to take steps to advance the negotiations …"
    said
    Deputy Defense Minister M.K. Matan Vilnai”

    More recently, beginning with the collapse of a ceasefire agreement on November 4, 2008, Israel closed Gaza's borders almost entirely and even to humanitarian goods, preventing the passage of fuel, food, and other basic items. Public declarations in the media by military officials note an "equation" of closing crossings in direct response to rocket fire. As articulated by Defense Ministry Spokesman Peter Lerner:
    "The opening of the crossings will be reviewed on a daily basis and
    will be subject to Palestinian militants halting their rocket fire against
    southern Israel”
    What they’re saying is that Gilad Shalit was not the original reason for the blockade. Seems the reason is what’s called a “moveable feast” for Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    -- Why does Israel then blockade non-necessities?
    The Israeli reasoning seems to be that Hamas(As many other insurgent/militants organizations around the world do) takes over the goods that are considered non-necessities, such as fuel for example, and then sells them to the Gazan population at its declared price, gaining all of the money from those goods. You may remember a while back when we were debating about the NATO air strike on the fuel tanks hijacked by a group of Afghan insurgents (The Taliban IIRC).
    The reasons why civilians have died in that air strike was that those insurgents were selling the stolen fuel to the civilians.
    Basically, those non-necessities, if let in, provide the majority of the regular income for the terrorist organization of Hamas, and by allowing it in Israel allows the continued sponsoring of it by the Gazan population.
    That is why the blockade seems to be allowing in only goods that are considered necessities, although from time to time Israel does indeed allow goods such as chocolate in.
    Yes I remember that – I agreed the Afghanistan air strike but that was a different case as the fuel had been stolen and the Afghan driver killed by the insurgents.

    To agree your scenario - Israel would allow goods in and Hamas kill the distributors and then steal the goods and then while Hamas and Gazan looters were standing around with their stolen property an Israeli air strike would hit them and kill them. I’d support Israel there.

    This isn’t the case – as you yourself posted – Israel allowed the cargo in once the ships docked at Ashdod. Besides – I believe the UN would be the distributors. There are also importers who bring in what’s allowed – if Hamas killed them or targeted them the imports would stop entirely and that would solve Israel’s problem – importers would stop and the Gazan citizens would be starved to death.

    Your scenario doesn’t fit.

    I’m also afraid your dismissal of Gisha’s case is far too lightweight to convince me otherwise.

    In times of peace, a vessel on the high seas may be stopped only either with the permission of its flag state, or on suspicion of international offences such as piracy and slave trading.
    During an armed conflict, however, a belligerent state is entitled to blockade enemy ports as a measure of economic warfare.
    Historically, such a blockade had to be conducted close to shore. In modern law, however, a blockade may be enforced against neutral vessels on the high seas, where the events on the Marvi Marmara took place.
    A belligerent may stop, inspect and divert any vessel it suspects of intending to breach its blockade, which is what Israel says it intended to do.
    While a merchant vessel has a right to freedom of navigation on the high seas, it can be intercepted legally when its express intention is to breach a blockade.
    The ships that were intercepted by Israel, however, were carrying aid. The law or armed conflict requires that blockading states allow aid through to the civilian population; however, the blockading state may control the channel through which aid is delivered, and that is what Israel has been doing.
    The authority to intercept vessels and control aid deliveries, however, is available only in a lawful blockade. To be lawful, a blockade must not be implemented where the damage to the civilian population is excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade, and this is where Israel’s legal position is open to question. Times Online
    There is no military advantage (as your own link on the Hamas tunnels showed) and the punishment is excessive when you look at the amount of aid required vs what is allowed in.

    I also note you haven’t touched all the other elements of the Gisha article…

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Can I make something clear?
    Even thou Israel is a jewish nation it acts as a democracy, which in-itself is a hypocritical statement but we managed to make it work 0-0

    We got many laws here that keep tredition, not religon treidition which != religon, i can keep kosher but not cause I believe in a god, but cause my grandpa did and my dad did and they both worked hard to get me here today and one of them went throu the holocust and not keeping some tredition is like a big fu to him...But I dont believe in religon or a god, no no no..

    Israel was founded with the need to save the jewish tredition, and it acts just like any other nation on earth, unless protecting your own citizens a jewish thing...I am sorry
    'DON'T WORRY SIR, I'M FROM THE INTERNET.'

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post

    I'm afraid Ann Wright isn't up to date - Hamas use cement and steel to build the support structure for their rocket launchers. That's why cement and steel are severely restricted.
    Yes, I am sure she is well aware of Israel's rationale for restricting the importation of cement. Does it make sense to you? The rational explanation is that Israel wishes to stop reconstruction because it hopes to deligitimize the Hamas leadership. So the important question is this- is this strategy working? Does violent confrontation with peace activisits advance their goal? Are the people of Gaza- most of whom are not Hamas- more or less likely to vote for peaceful, secular leaders next time around?

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gardener View Post
    I think the term "antisemitic" covers it pretty well, myeself -- especially when bigoted individuals automatically bring into question the veracity of Jews simply because they are Jews.
    You tipped your hand a long time ago.
    If you are referring to something I wrote , I never questioned the veracity of anyone simply because they are Jewish. You obviously have some need to derail debate by tarring people with the ant-semitic brush. Let us know when you have anything to say relating to the actual topic.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    And whether the Geneva Conventions apply or not – it’s a collective punishment of the ordinary Gazans. Hamas gets what it wants through the tunnels, Israel lets in what it decides is the bare minimum and meantime ordinary Gazans are collectively punished by Hamas and the Israeli Govt.
    On top of that, Hamas gets weapons through the tunnels – the point of the sea and border blockade does little to prevent Hamas getting weapons through and only the citizens are really affected.
    You refer to the Palistinians in Gaza as ordinary Gazans. Are these ordinary Gazans the people who voted for HAMAS? Ordinary Gazans who elected a terrorist organization as thier leaders? Ordinary Gazans who elected HAMAS, an organization bent on the destruction of the state of Islael and the death of all Jews.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Yes, I am sure she is well aware of Israel's rationale for restricting the importation of cement. Does it make sense to you? The rational explanation is that Israel wishes to stop reconstruction because it hopes to deligitimize the Hamas leadership. So the important question is this- is this strategy working? Does violent confrontation with peace activisits advance their goal? Are the people of Gaza- most of whom are not Hamas- more or less likely to vote for peaceful, secular leaders next time around?
    I particularly don't think steel and concrete are used only for rebuilding. Hamas can get cement and steel through its tunnels but it is a commodity that it makes sense to block (if the blockade is legal). Ordinary food items are not sensible to be blocked which is one reason i believe the blockade isn't entirely legal.

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    You refer to the Palistinians in Gaza as ordinary Gazans. Are these ordinary Gazans the people who voted for HAMAS? Ordinary Gazans who elected a terrorist organization as thier leaders? Ordinary Gazans who elected HAMAS, an organization bent on the destruction of the state of Islael and the death of all Jews.
    You know, someone (possibly Apocalypse) posted a link a while ago in this thread claiming that Hamas overthrew the legitimate Govt - I didn't query him then.

    One thing I'm surprised about by the pro-Israeli Govt posters here is the apparent confliction between many of their posts against those of us who've had queries with the blockade and the legality of the IDF raids. I'll check back and maybe ask whoever posted that link (about 10-20 pages ago) whether Hamas was legitimately voted in or whether they overthrew a previous Govt.

    Then I'll give you my own opinion - however whether an electorate decides to vote in a contraceptive device / a goat / a politician or a terrorist is up to the constitution of said electorate.

    Might I ask whether you think the Gazans elected a Govt? Leaders? Because some of the pro-raid people have said the Geneva Conventions do not apply because Gaza is not a state.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    I am beginning to think that the only way to shut up all of this bull is to have Canadians and/or Mexicans send thousands of rockets in the U.S. Then when the U.S. blockades, let's see your reaction.

    Oh wait, I forgot, it is perfectly ok to allow your citizens to be bombed incessantly.
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former" - Albert Einstein

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    You tipped your hand a long time ago.
    If you are referring to something I wrote , I never questioned the veracity of anyone simply because they are Jewish. You obviously have some need to derail debate by tarring people with the ant-semitic brush. Let us know when you have anything to say relating to the actual topic.
    Actually, you tipped yours and you continue to tip it.

    Heck, you just called the violent thugs who lynched the first Jew onboard their ship "peace activists".

    If that is your version of peace, I'd hate to see what qualifies as war.
    "you're better off on Stormfront discussing how evil brown men are taking innocent white flowers." Infinite Chaos

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