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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    US-Turkish man killed in Israeli flotilla raid - Yahoo! News

    So they murdered an American citizen.. 4 shots to the head.

    Let me guess he aint a real American now...
    Neither of us were there so neither of us know how the guys death came about. Did think this was a fascinating quote from Furak's father:

    "Dogan's father told Turkey's state-run Anatolia News Agency that he had identified his son's body and that he had been shot through the forehead. Still, he said, the family was not sad because they believed Furkan had died with honor.

    Not sad? Does kind of have a blessed martyr tone to it....


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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Reading through parts of this thread and other news sources it seems that anti-Zionist feelings have clouded the arguments in a haze of bias. If Israel was viewed in a historical and objective context and if it was treated like any other western country, all this would be much simpler.

    But maybe that is just me.
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the former" - Albert Einstein

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    So in your world peaceful protest is not allowed.
    There is nothing peaceful about running a blockcade and attacking with flash grenades, knives and pipes.

    Those are the little details you keep glossing over.

    Still waiting for you to answer my question:

    If aid was the goal why did they ignore both offers by Egypt and Israel to offload their supplies?

    Care to answer it this time?
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    As pointed out, it is possible to have more than one goal with an action. Aid and publicity where to goals.
    Of course it is but you cannot hide behind humanitarian aid if that was not your true goal because if it was, the supplies would have been taken to a port. That is the lie they are telling.

    Israel was really in a no win situation here. They could not let the ships land, and if, as seems likely, the people on the one ship planned to attack the Israeli forces who tried to stop them, it guaranteed publicity in a manner Israel does not really want.

    I wonder if the US has a battle group in the Med, and maybe asking them to intercept the flotilla might not have been a safer course of action from a PR standpoint.
    Not the US. They would draw as much criticism as Israel. The solution is to stop them in Israeli waters not international. If international is necessary, bring along some UN lapdogs to "supervise"
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    -- Inhumane would be allowing terrorists to receive weapons to use against Israeli citizens
    Nobody so far on this thread has advocated this. There are links posted earlier by myself explaining that most weapons already come through the tunnels between Egypt and Gaza - these tunnels are controlled by Hamas and Hamas has no interest in bringing in aid. The ordinary Gazan is hurt twice by what is described as "collective punishment" - i.e. being punished for crimes they did not commit. I can post the links yet again if you haven't read the whole thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    -- Are you under the impression no aid gets to Gaza at all?
    Also something covered earlier. Israel lets in aid - the UN has said that it's only about a quarter of what is necessary. There's an Israeli human rights group called Gisha who have won through the Israeli Supreme Court the publication of the list of what is allowed and what is not allowed into Israel. This is all earlier in the thread.

    I linked to a Gisha .pdf file too which shows why they think the Israeli Blockade isn't legal - Apocalypse was going to critique it and show that they are wrong but hasn't gotten around to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    According to former diplomat, Ann Wright, who was on the scene( speaking today on Democracynow) these ships were inspected beforehand and cement is not easy to use as a weapon. Do they build giant trebuches to sling great gobs of it at unsuspecting Israeli citizens?--
    I'm afraid Ann Wright isn't up to date - Hamas use cement and steel to build the support structure for their rocket launchers. That's why cement and steel are severely restricted.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Neither can I actually - probably because that's a line I have not pushed / explored or tried in this thread. You know that so I'm curious to know why you said this?
    I have perceived your arguments as an obvious attempt to justify the attack on the soldiers.
    If that is not so however then I apologize.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Also something covered earlier. Israel lets in aid - the UN has said that it's only about a quarter of what is necessary.
    Yeah I really like that UN statement.
    Do you know that the availability of the items that those humanitarian aids consist of in places such as Haiti and other third world nations is about the same if not worse?
    Saying that it's only a quarter of what is needed is fine, the question is what do they mean to by "what is needed".
    If 15,000 tons of humanitarian aid per week is a quarter, then certainly what is needed according to them is 60,000 tons of humanitarian aid to be let into the Strip per week.
    Now that is quite ****ing a lot for a small place such as Gaza, and if that is what the UN refers to by "what is needed" for the strip, it means that there is no simple lack of humanitarian aid in the strip, but that the Strip is completely empty from those stuff.
    Secondly I have to assume that this "what is needed" is adjusted to the developed-world standards, and not to the developing world standards, and hence the lack of proportionality in the UN expectations.
    I linked to a Gisha .pdf file too which shows why they think the Israeli Blockade isn't legal - Apocalypse was going to critique it and show that they are wrong but hasn't gotten around to it.
    You said you'll repost it, so do so please.
    If I'm not wrong it's all about the reference to dual use items not being let into the Strip.
    Items that can be used for both civilian and combatative purposes.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I have perceived your arguments as an obvious attempt to justify the attack on the soldiers.
    If that is not so however then I apologize.
    Your apology is accepted. I had personally thought we'd shown far greater mutual respect till then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Yeah I really like that UN statement.
    Do you know that the availability of the items that those humanitarian aids consist of in places such as Haiti and other third world nations is about the same if not worse?
    Saying that it's only a quarter of what is needed is fine, the question is what do they mean to by "what is needed".
    The UN has based that judgement on the amounts of food etc that was imported into Gaza before the blockade – and I’m not justifying the continuation of supplies of weapons into Gaza – in comparison the blockade.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    -- If 15,000 tons of humanitarian aid per week is a quarter, then certainly what is needed according to them is 60,000 tons of humanitarian aid to be let into the Strip per week.
    Now that is quite ****ing a lot for a small place such as Gaza, and if that is what the UN refers to by "what is needed" for the strip, it means that there is no simple lack of humanitarian aid in the strip, but that the Strip is completely empty from those stuff.
    Secondly I have to assume that this "what is needed" is adjusted to the developed-world standards, and not to the developing world standards, and hence the lack of proportionality in the UN expectations.
    Firstly Israel (if you read the BBC link posted before and here again) has apparently worked out the calorie intake it thinks is necessary to keep the citizens alive and that is what it bases its restrictions on.

    The Israeli authorities also confirm the existence of four documents related to how the blockade works: how they process requests for imports into Gaza, how they monitor the shortages within Gaza, their approved list of what is allowed in, and a document entitled "Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - Red Lines" which sets out the minimum calorie intake needed by Gaza's million and a half inhabitants, according to their age and sex.
    BBC Link here
    From a liberty point of view – I’d personally prefer to not to have my food choices dictated if I have the means to buy them. Secondly, “UN expectations” is nothing to do with what a population can afford – if they could afford the (legal) items before the blockade they should be allowed them after. Haiti is a different kettle of fish – if the Haiti economy cannot afford certain items they go without – this was not the case in Gaza. Those items are dictated. The BBC link has the .pdf file Gisha submitted to the Israeli Supreme Court but I’ll post the link again BBC Link here.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    You said you'll repost it, so do so please.
    Repost of Gisha Document

    The nice thing about this document is it fully references Israeli and International Law – and has links within that you might find useful.


    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    -- If I'm not wrong it's all about the reference to dual use items not being let into the Strip.
    Items that can be used for both civilian and combatative purposes.
    I’m afraid you are wrong – here’s some quick examples –

    GOODS ALLOWED INTO GAZA
    Canned meat and tuna, but not canned fruit
    Mineral water, but not fruit juice
    Sesame paste (tahini) but not jam
    Tea and coffee but not chocolate
    Jam, fruit juice and chocolate are deadly weapons against most people’s expanding waistline – not against IDF soldiers though unless you know something I don’t?

    You may remember my light hearted reference to why coriander was banned when we first discussed the issue of the limits imposed on Gazan citizens?
    Last edited by Infinite Chaos; 06-04-10 at 05:59 AM.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    The UN has based that judgment on the amounts of food etc that was imported into Gaza before the blockade – and I’m not justifying the continuation of supplies of weapons into Gaza – in comparison the blockade.
    I think they're referring to the amount of aid inserted into the Gaza Strip by organizations such as the UN before the blockade, not to the amount of goods imported by the Hamas government before the blockade.
    Firstly Israel (if you read the BBC link posted before and here again) has apparently worked out the calorie intake it thinks is necessary to keep the citizens alive and that is what it bases its restrictions on.
    Yes I know that.
    From a liberty point of view – I’d personally prefer to not to have my food choices dictated if I have the means to buy them.
    Well yeah it's a blockade we're speaking about, certainly it's going to greatly affect the population within the blockaded territory.
    Secondly, “UN expectations” is nothing to do with what a population can afford – if they could afford the (legal) items before the blockade they should be allowed them after. Haiti is a different kettle of fish – if the Haiti economy cannot afford certain items they go without – this was not the case in Gaza. Those items are dictated. The BBC link has the .pdf file Gisha submitted to the Israeli Supreme Court but I’ll post the link again BBC Link here.
    Once more I'd like a reference to those details about the pre-Blockade Gaza Strip.
    Repost of Gisha Document

    The nice thing about this document is it fully references Israeli and International Law – and has links within that you might find useful.
    That document makes many baseless assumptions.
    For example, it states that because Israel enforces movement restriction on civilians from and into the Gaza Strip it means that Israel seeks to place pressure over the Gazan population and decrease their support for the militants.
    The real reason is more around the threat of militants imposing as civilians getting into and outside the Gaza Strip.

    Another example would be the claim that Israel has no real military objective in that blockade.
    Clearly the objective of the blockade is to drastically decrease the power of Hamas, whether by the blockage of weapons or by the blockage of supplies for the constructions of bunkers and rockets.
    The organization claims that Israel has no declared objective - that, once it will be achieved, the blockade could be lifted - and that this somehow causes the blockade to become a collective punishment rather than the cutting of supplies to the terrorist organizations in control of the territory.
    Israel did however inform Hamas that the release of the abducted soldier, Gilad Shalit, would result in the immediate lifting of the blockade - sort of a compriomising by Israel.
    Besides that it is clear that if Hamas revokes terrorism the blockade would immediately end.
    I’m afraid you are wrong – here’s some quick examples –



    Jam, fruit juice and chocolate are deadly weapons against most people’s expanding waistline – not against IDF soldiers though unless you know something I don’t?

    You may remember my light hearted reference to why coriander was banned when we first discussed the issue of the limits imposed on Gazan citizens?
    Now the other issue with the blockade is the above, the blockading of what is considered to be "civilians goods" and the way this organization refers to it as a clear evidence for collective punishment.
    The blockade on the strip allows only necessities into it, such as water and canned meat.
    As you were saying before, Israel calculates the required calories for the Gazan population and assembles the blockaded goods list in accordance with that calculation.

    Why does Israel then blockade non-necessities?
    The Israeli reasoning seems to be that Hamas(As many other insurgent/militants organizations around the world do) takes over the goods that are considered non-necessities, such as fuel for example, and then sells them to the Gazan population at its declared price, gaining all of the money from those goods.
    You may remember a while back when we were debating about the NATO air strike on the fuel tanks hijacked by a group of Afghan insurgents (The Taliban IIRC).
    The reasons why civilians have died in that air strike was that those insurgents were selling the stolen fuel to the civilians.
    Basically, those non-necessities, if let in, provide the majority of the regular income for the terrorist organization of Hamas, and by allowing it in Israel allows the continued sponsoring of it by the Gazan population.
    That is why the blockade seems to be allowing in only goods that are considered necessities, although from time to time Israel does indeed allow goods such as chocolate in.
    Last edited by Apocalypse; 06-04-10 at 06:29 AM.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Cole View Post
    Neither of us were there so neither of us know how the guys death came about. Did think this was a fascinating quote from Furak's father:

    "Dogan's father told Turkey's state-run Anatolia News Agency that he had identified his son's body and that he had been shot through the forehead. Still, he said, the family was not sad because they believed Furkan had died with honor.

    Not sad? Does kind of have a blessed martyr tone to it....


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    Oh christ cut the crap will you?

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