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Thread: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    It became unlawful for Israel to board the ship when it did not contact the Turkish government requesting permission to board while providing credible to make that request happen. The boats were flying the flag of Turkey. Article 14 and Article 6 state:


    If the offence is that the aid flotilla intended to break an illegal blockade, then they must notify the Turkish government of that offence and request permission to board.

    Again, there is absolutely nothing in international law that stipulates a States' jurisdiction may extend to international waters. don believes the absence of such a law provides the clause to commit such an action. That is not how law works.
    You're still missing the point.

    Article 6 and Article 14 only apply to situations where Article 3 is violated.

    Article 3 only applies where one of the lettered subparts is violated by an action that is already illegal under another law.

    This is not a statute that makes things illegal. This is a statute that provides a remedy. The argument that an action is illegal because it violates Art. III is circular and erroneous.

    This is 1L legal interpretation.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You're still missing the point.

    Article 6 and Article 14 only apply to situations where Article 3 is violated.

    Article 3 only applies where one of the lettered subparts is violated by an action that is already illegal under another law.

    This is not a statute that makes things illegal. This is a statute that provides a remedy. The argument that an action is illegal because it violates Art. III is circular and erroneous.

    This is 1L legal interpretation.
    No you still have it confused. Article 3 applies because subpart a was violated when Israel did not contact the Turkish government requesting to board the ships and instead forcefully boarded the ships. The act of forcefully boarding the ships without first contacting the government of Turkey is unlawful, as stipulating from Article 6 and Article 14.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    No you still have it confused. Article 3 applies because subpart a was violated when Israel did not contact the Turkish government requesting to board the ships and instead forcefully boarded the ships. The act of forcefully boarding the ships without first contacting the government of Turkey is unlawful, as stipulating from Article 6 and Article 14.
    You're obviously not going to believe me and I'm not going to keep trying, so here's what you should do. Go out and find a friend who is a lawyer, or even someone who just happens to know a lot about writing. Show them this:

    1. Any person commits an offence if that person unlawfully and intentionally:

    (a) seizes or exercises control over a ship by force or threat thereof or any other form of intimidation; or

    (b) performs an act of violence against a person on board a ship if that act is likely to endanger the safe navigation of that ship; or

    (c) destroys a ship or causes damage to a ship or to its cargo which is likely to endanger the safe navigation of that ship; or

    (d) places or causes to be placed on a ship, by any means whatsoever, a device or substance which is likely to destroy that ship, or cause damage to that ship or its cargo which endangers or is likely to endanger the safe navigation of that ship; or

    (e) destroys or seriously damages maritime navigational facilities or seriously interferes with their operation, if any such act is likely to endanger the safe navigation of a ship; or

    (f) communicates information which he knows to be false, thereby endangering the safe navigation of a ship; or

    (g) injures or kills any person, in connection with the commission or the attempted commission of any of the offences set forth in subparagraphs (a) to (f).
    Ask them whether the language of heading 1. applies to each subpart, then come back here and let me know what they say.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You're obviously not going to believe me and I'm not going to keep trying, so here's what you should do. Go out and find a friend who is a lawyer, or even someone who just happens to know a lot about writing. Show them this:

    Ask them whether the language of heading 1. applies to each subpart, then come back here and let me know what they say.
    Of course it applies to each subpart. That is why it is a subpart of heading 1. I've already e-mailed it to my mother and grandfather who both are wondering why anyone is even attempting to debate otherwise. My mother is a librarian with a Master's in Library Sciences and my grandfather (her father) has a PhD in English Literature & Creative Writing (which he earned after coming here on a FulBright Scholarship).

    Explain why if there is a heading, it would not apply to each one of its subparts. Explain why it would only apply to one subpart instead of another.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by Degreez View Post
    Of course it applies to each subpart. That is why it is a subpart of heading 1. I've already e-mailed it to my mother and grandfather who both are wondering why anyone is even attempting to debate otherwise. My mother is a librarian with a Master's in Library Sciences and my grandfather (her father) has a PhD in English Literature & Creative Writing (which he earned after coming here on a FulBright Scholarship).

    Explain why if there is a heading, it would not apply to each one of its subparts. Explain why it would only apply to one subpart instead of another.
    ...

    ...

    I'm arguing that it DOES apply to each subpart. If you acknowledge that it applies to each subpart, then this should be very easy for you to understand.

    Look: In order for Israel's action to be illegal under Art. 14 or Art. 6, it has to be a violation of Art. III. In order for it to be a violation of Art. III, the following has to be proved:

    A person unlawfully and intentionally seized or exercised control over a ship by force or threat thereof or any other form of intimidation
    One of the elements of a violation of Art. III is that the action itself was illegal. If the action itself was not illegal, then there can be no violation of Art. III (and by proxy Art. 6 or Art. 14). You cannot use a violation of a subpart to prove an element of the Article. That's circular reasoning.





    edit: Consider this example:

    Imagine there is a law that says:

    1. A crime is committed where a person uses a red crayon and:
    a) uses a blue crayon
    b) uses a green crayon
    c) uses a yellow crayon
    Now imagine that someone used a blue crayon. The fact that someone used a blue crayon is not sufficient to show that a crime has been committed. You have to show that someone used a blue crayon and that the person also used a red crayon.

    Now go back to the case at hand. It's obvious that someone seized control of the ship under subpart (a). However, nothing in the Convention applies unless you also show that it was done so unlawfully. This is why I've been telling you over and over that this Convention does not answer the question of whether the action was unlawful.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 06-02-10 at 10:56 PM.
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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    this quote was found within that interview with the israeli ambassador to the USA:
    Hamas violently overthrew the legitimate Palestinian government of Gaza.
    you may question why that is significant. it is because it is a lie. a lie the isreali ambassador will state to avoid having to recognize the duly elected hamas government of gaza
    Leaders from both Hamas and Fatah, however, announced on Thursday morning that Hamas was expected to win a majority. Ismail Haniya, who topped the Change and Reform list claimed "Hamas has won more than 70 seats in Gaza and the West Bank". [15]. Another Hamas leader, Musheer al-Masri claimed the party expected to win 77 seats. [16] Aljazeera reported Fatah officials conceding defeat. Prime minister Ahmed Qurei resigned on Thursday morning, along with his cabinet, saying it now fell to Hamas to form a government. [17][18]. Hamas leader al-Masri called for a "political partnership" with Fatah, but prominent Fatah leader, Jibril Rajoub, rejected a coalition and called on Fatah to form a "responsible opposition".
    Palestinian legislative election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    if that israeli ambassador is willing to lie about the election results, why should he be found credible in his assertions that the israeli soliders had no choice but to defend themselves in their assault on the vessel carrying humanitarian aid to gaza?
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Are you serious? It's perfectly justified to blame Israel for the blockade, and it's perfectly justified to blame Israel for the disproportionate use of force during a boarding whose legality is disputed, to say the least.

    If you use the WWII analogy, I think you should think again about who is the oppressor and who are the oppresed.
    The blockade is legal, after 7000 rocket attacks and the gaza ports known for it's smuggling points and being in a state of war, Isreal had every right to use what force is necessary, up to including sinking the ship, so Israel was restrained. Disproportianate force, where do you get this from, this is BS. Btw the Palistinians are oppressed by is ruling party Hamas and it constant taste for war.

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    this quote was found within that interview with the israeli ambassador to the USA:
    you may question why that is significant. it is because it is a lie. a lie the isreali ambassador will state to avoid having to recognize the duly elected hamas government of gaza

    Palestinian legislative election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    if that israeli ambassador is willing to lie about the election results, why should he be found credible in his assertions that the israeli soliders had no choice but to defend themselves in their assault on the vessel carrying humanitarian aid to gaza?
    15 June 2007

    BBC NEWS | Middle East | Abbas sacks Hamas-led government

    Hamas fighters overran most of Gaza on Thursday, capturing the headquarters of Fatah's Preventative Security force and hailing Gaza's "liberation".

    After nightfall militants entered Mr Abbas' presidential compound, which had been left undefended when Fatah men slipped away earlier.

    Palestinian Information Minister Mustafa Barghouti said Hamas was in total control of Gaza.

    "What is happening now is not only the collapse of the Palestinian national unity government but actually the collapse of the whole Palestinian Authority," he told the BBC.
    Last edited by bhkad; 06-02-10 at 11:56 PM.

    OBL 11/24/02

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Although the wisdom of Israel's actions in stopping the Gaza flotilla is open to question, the legality of its actions is not. What Israel did was entirely consistent with both international and domestic law. In order to understand why Israel acted within its rights, the complex events at sea must be deconstructed.

    The rest here...
    Alan Dershowitz: Israel's Actions Were Entirely Lawful Though Probably Unwise

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    Re: Israel intercepts Gaza flotilla, says Hamas

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    this quote was found within that interview with the israeli ambassador to the USA:
    you may question why that is significant. it is because it is a lie. a lie the isreali ambassador will state to avoid having to recognize the duly elected hamas government of gaza

    Palestinian legislative election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    if that israeli ambassador is willing to lie about the election results, why should he be found credible in his assertions that the israeli soliders had no choice but to defend themselves in their assault on the vessel carrying humanitarian aid to gaza?
    Michael Oren also stated on the Diane Rehm interview,today, that "the ship was too large to stop by non-violent means" ...so violent means were planned? Makes you wonder if he let the cat out of the bag, unintentionally.

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