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Thread: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

  1. #21
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    Re: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    Read the news blog in the opening post. It explains it. Then maybe it can be discussed properly, rather than just a thread full of the barage by the usual hoard who reply on threads concerning womens issues, to push some pc gender inequality agenda nonsense.

    It is very discouraging, if all threads on womens issues are going to be at this level. Surely, decades of this type of discussion between the genders would be enough to show what a stalemate it is.
    I have no problem with women in the military as long as they have to pass the same exact physical standards as their male counterparts and get treated the same as their male counterparts. So it is BS to talk about equality when the standards are not the same. I could be wrong but it is possible the UN does the same thing, instead of actually carrying about the quality of troops they have they lower the standards to satisfy some BS pc gender equality nonsense.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I have no problem with women in the military ...
    You are still missing the point again, like all the other posters in this thread are. And, this is exactly the reason the UN are calling for more female peace keepers. It is not what is a problem for you that is important here. What is important is what is good for women in troubled countries. What will provide them with what they need. Who will notice what they need? The point the UN is making is that it will take women to be able to see what women need. And, this is important, as women are half the worlds population, and their needs and rights are being overlooked, and worse still they are being heavily abused on a large scale, and this is being sidelined or even going unnoticed by male soldiers. Maybe, they like you are focussing way too much on who is bigger than who, and who can carry the biggest bag, who can run fastest...

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    Re: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

    Now that I give it even more thought, this thread is liklely and good sampling of the types of attitudes which are causing a shortage of female candidates to become peace keepers from the armies of the various countries.

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    Re: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    Now that I give it even more thought, this thread is liklely and good sampling of the types of attitudes which are causing a shortage of female candidates to become peace keepers from the armies of the various countries.
    How is wanting equal standards in the armed forces is a negative thing? Perhaps if better standards were use something like in this picture would have not happened.

    Last edited by jamesrage; 05-24-10 at 02:14 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    How is wanting equal standards in the armed forces is a negative thing?
    There are things that women can do, that men cant, when it comes to making trust and protection inroads in certain troubled countries.

    There used to be a time when the NGOs could provide this kind of connection in those communities, but this no longer works, because the NGOs are no longer given the respect and immunity they used to be given by groups such as the Lords Army. Now, what women used to provide needs to be protected by large militarised units. They cannot penetrate these societies without the protection of being part of a millitary unit. If the NGO and/or female soldiers are not present, it will take longer and be a lot more difficult for UN soldiers to gain trust and access to isolated communities.

    Anyway, hopefully somebody has something to say other than churning up the same old arguments about basing standards on physical strength alone. The way things used to be done in countries at war is no longer working, and ground breaking new methods need to be used.

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    Re: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

    Quote Originally Posted by Mell View Post
    Now that I give it even more thought, this thread is liklely and good sampling of the types of attitudes which are causing a shortage of female candidates to become peace keepers from the armies of the various countries.


    Ow, that cuts me to the quick! However shall I go on....

    Quite easily, really.


    Really, I love the UN. I mean, they're like Gilligan, you never know what they'll do next.

    No matter how fracked up a country is, no matter how desperate or hopeless the situation seems, the UN can always be counted on to make it worse somehow.

    It's better than Seinfeld re-runs featuring Frazier. The insane wacky comedy!

    Well, until we get to the part where innocent people get hurt because the UN is corrupt and incompetent... that part isn't funny.

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    Re: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Men have the capacity for a higher maximum muscle mass (total strength) then women.

    Women tend to have stronger heart muscles and have higher maximum endurance levels.

    If you have a man and woman at the same physical level for their bodies lift the same max weight then the man will likely win. If you have the same individuals run long distance or an agility course then the woman will most likely win.

    In terms of combat training and carrying gear, women could most likely carry the same gear as a man for a longer period of time without fatiguing but are limited on how much they can carry.
    So much of this is drawing the wrong conclusion. It's Gibberish.

    The average 21-year old female has the physical strength of how old a man?
    65-years
    There is no way they can carry 50lbs of gear and beat a man.
    No chance. Zero.
    0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 pounds... does not matter... no chance.

    Across the board a man will beat a women in a marathon. If they are such endurance wonders, why hasn't a women won a big marathon event?

    In fact, I cannot recall any sporty babe beating any half-assed sporty guy in a long run.
    That kills the endurance question.

    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 05-25-10 at 04:06 PM.
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    Re: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    So much of this is drawing the wrong conclusion. It's Gibberish.

    The average 21-year old female has the physical strength of how old a man?
    65-years
    There is no way they can carry 50lbs of gear and beat a man.
    No chance. Zero.
    0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 pounds... does not matter... no chance.

    Across the board a man will beat a women in a marathon. If they are such endurance wonders, why hasn't a women won a big marathon event?

    In fact, I cannot recall any sporty babe beating any half-assed sporty guy in a long run.

    That kills the endurance question.

    .
    Both the University of Syracuse and the University of Colorado disagree with you.

    The below study shows that though endurance levels are close "women exhibited significantly greater endurance on the isometric test than men".

    Gender differences in skeletal muscle fatigability are related to contraction type and EMG spectral compression -- Clark et al. 94 (6): 2263 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

    The below study found that women outlasted men by an average of 75 per cent for certain exercises. It also suggests that, "given that women are weaker than men, the difference may be due to some interaction between muscle strength and blood flow within the muscle."

    Health & Medical News - Women beat men on muscle endurance - 26/09/2000
    Last edited by Gibberish; 05-25-10 at 09:16 PM.
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    Re: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Both the University of Syracuse and the University of Colorado disagree with you.

    The below study shows that though endurance levels are close "women exhibited significantly greater endurance on the isometric test than men".

    Gender differences in skeletal muscle fatigability are related to contraction type and EMG spectral compression -- Clark et al. 94 (6): 2263 -- Journal of Applied Physiology

    The below study found that women outlasted men by an average of 75 per cent for certain exercises. It also suggests that, "given that women are weaker than men, the difference may be due to some interaction between muscle strength and blood flow within the muscle."

    Health & Medical News - Women beat men on muscle endurance - 26/09/2000

    Okay, I read the article, headache though it was. Once upon a time I knew a little about sports-med so I didn't have to look up too many terms.

    They tested the subjects to find out what load (weight) each subject could handle with 50% of maximum muscular contraction. That means a stronger subject would be loaded with more weight. Which means, in general, that the men are going to be loaded with more weight than the women, since this exercise was mainly about lower back strength.

    The women showed substatially greater endurance with the isometric (non-moving) exercise. Results were about the same with isotonic (moving) exercises. Bear in mind that each subject was loaded with different weights depending on how strong they had demonstrated themselves to be in the muscle groups used in the test.

    Short version:

    1. This test was very limited, involving mainly lower torso muscles.

    2. This test loaded each subject with differing amounts of weight, according to how strong they had demonstrated themselves to be.

    3. This test demonstrated only that when loaded with proportional, rather than absolute weight loads, that women out performed men only in non-moving endurance tests, not moving-endurance tests, and that only within the limited context of lower-back endurance.

    Ergo... this test does not prove much of anything.

    At least, not as far as arguing whether in practical field-condition operations that an average female soldier could hump a standard weight of weapons, ammo and gear and maintain the ability to move with that gear for as long a period of time as a male soldier wearing the same weight loadout.

    This laboratory test may have some intresting results for medical and biological studies, but because a standard weight load was not used for all participants, it isn't a practical guide for field operations.

    A practical test would be to take two soldiers, one male one female, who have had approximately the same amount of training/conditioning. Have two IDENTICAL sets of gear set up: backpack of X weight, M4 rifle, X amount of ammo, body armor, helmet, commo, etc etc.... the point being both sets of gear are EXACTLY the SAME and weigh the same. Load 'em up and take 'em out on maneuvers, and see who falls out first.

    Now I hate to tell you, but the advantage that males have in upper-body and core-torso strength is going to make a huge difference in this pragmatic field exercise, and the majority of female soldiers are not going to be able to keep up with the male soldiers. There may be exceptional female individuals who can, but they will be few in number.

    This does not mean that female soldiers can't operate combat vehicles or do any of hundreds of other jobs... it just means that very very few female soldiers will be able to qualify for close-combat infantry, recon, ranger or certain other units if a universal standard is required.
    Last edited by Goshin; 05-25-10 at 09:58 PM.

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    Re: GLOBAL: Women UN peacekeepers - more needed*

    I think that considering the makeup of a mission/unit/goal in the terms of gender is off the mark.

    They should focus on overall ability, qualifications, care and concern that the person has with the goal and so on, so forth.

    Using gender as a guide to who you choose or who you send might be a good thing sometimes - but if you focus on it too much it might jeopardize everything.

    I wouldn't want someone who can't cut it be there, anyway, just because there was some false illusion that we needed to bridge a gender-gap.

    If a woman applies and she qualifies, great - but considering altering standards or making the position more enticing according to gender is, well, heading in the wrong direction.
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