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Thread: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

  1. #131
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    Re: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Bush Sr. was also a WWII vet. We'll not have people of that generation leading us anymore. But Desert Storm was an incomplete war, for all its initial success. Why the sanctions and no-fly zones for a decade+ if all was solved by Bush Sr.?
    Without derailing this thread, the Gulf War was not an incomplete war. We completed our objectives and at the pleas of the Saudis, as well as fear of the disinegration of the coalition, we chose not to go to Baghdad.
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    Re: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Bush Sr. was also a WWII vet. We'll not have people of that generation leading us anymore. But Desert Storm was an incomplete war, for all its initial success. Why the sanctions and no-fly zones for a decade+ if all was solved by Bush Sr.?
    I agree he should have done more but the goals were accomplished with minimal casualties. Most people thought Saddam would have behaved and cooperated after being spanked so badly. They really couldn't predict what happened after we pulled back.
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    Re: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    This comment is just one of many that Kim-Jong-il has made to prove his irrationality.

    Kim Jong-il once went so far as to declare 'the world does not deserve to exist without the DPRK', and should North Korea implode, "we will take the rest of the world with us".
    I think the question of rationality in terms of that statement would hinge on the context in which it was said. For example, if he is directing that towards a domestic audience trying to hype up NK "prestige", then the qoute does not really come across as irrational (in my opinion at least).

    Take a step back and look at this scenario from someone in thet Middle East or North Korea. Bush (allegedly) told Nabil Shaath that, "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

    Now imagine Ahmadinejad makes a similiar statement just with different places. I have no doubt we would jump all over it as evidence of the "irrationality" of the Iranian leadership. I think actions (not statements) are the best determination of rationality.

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    Re: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    Without derailing this thread, the Gulf War was not an incomplete war. We completed our objectives and at the pleas of the Saudis, as well as fear of the disinegration of the coalition, we chose not to go to Baghdad.
    Hindsight is 20/20. Had we gone in we could be in the middle of a 20 year war.
    "This Administration will constantly strive to promote an ownership society in America. We want more people owning their own home. It is in our national interest that more people own their own home. After all, if you own your own home, you have a vital stake in the future of our country."" GWB

  5. #135
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    Re: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

    Quote Originally Posted by USA-1 View Post
    Sounds like you advocate a military state. Civilians are screwing up everything.
    Maybe to simple folk.

    I advocate a nation where civilians decide to go to war and then get the **** out of the way so we can win them.

    WWII: "The Greatest Generation." Two atomic bombs over Japan and Germany's Dresen. Decisive victory.

    Korean War: Restrictions and rules by civilains far removed. Civilians controlled the conduct of combat lines and in the end slashed a line across Korea and called it "victory."

    Vietnam War: Restrictions and rules by civilians far removed. Politicians refused to even call it a war, because "conflict" had a better ring to it. After stringing it out, by demanding the military give up land it took the day before and with no end of supply from untouchable Cambodia, we gave up and left.

    Somalia: Restrictions and rules by civilians in the UN who were afraid to fight for the needy and instead opted to pretend that the enmy would just stop being mean. We tucked tail and ran after everybody else did.

    Bosnia: Restrictions and rules by civilians and in the end the country was made safe for human trafficing and weapons runners.

    Afghanistan War: Civilians controlled that war and today seek "alternate" ways to get out.

    Iraq War: Civilains insisting that their plan for war trumped the military's living CENTCOM plan. Civilians insisting that virtually every rule of occupation 101 is ingored. And Fallujah II? That was the result of civilians insisting that we abandon Fallujah I on the ten yard line.


    All of these have something in common. And don't try to state that they are less than conventional, because our wars before the World War were non-conventional. We have a history of winning non-conventional wars. What is in common is that all were places where the military was tossed in before the civilian communuity grew a conscience. Of course, after this conscience was realized, we find ways to remove our military with "victory" being a non-issue. All it took for Afghanistan and Iraq was a few reporters in country right? All of a sudden the thirst for revenge and the desire to have other men kill for them gave way to criticizing what war is.

    Now, let's look at the Gulf War and the turn around in Iraq.

    What names come to mind in the form of leadership during the Gulf War? Is it Bush or is it General Schwarzkopf and General Powell? What names come to mind in the form of Iraq's early misery? Rumsfeld, Cheney? What about after the turn around? Is it General Petraeus? Just these two wars shows us what damage civilians can do even without using the rest of the later half of the twentieth century. If you want war, send the military and get the **** out of the way. Civilians have only proven to make our wars linger on as they deliberate whether or not to be there. Whining about the destruction the military causes seems to trump the fact that the war would already be over had they let the practitioners do their job. Nothing is more dangerous to our troops than civilians who know "exactly" what to do. How many of you perform your own operations? Surely, your surgeon doesn't know what he's doing either.

    By all means, let's pretend that war with North Korea is something we can hug out. In the end, it's only our troops that have to deal with a dug in and prepared enemy. None of the civilians that allowed them to prepare with their nonesense will be there.

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    Re: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

    Quote Originally Posted by NolaMan View Post
    It was the military's idea to use nuclear weapons against China, which would have been an even worse idea. In this case, it is good that the civilians put a stop to that.
    And why is this? The "Greatest Generation" placed an exclamation mark on their victory with a nuclear bomb. But civilians don't like great anymore do they? They demand perfection. Our wars have been "unwinnable" because civilains interfere. A few waterboarding cases has us branded as Nazis. Former generations didn't have to contend with such things did they? They simply bombed out cities. Victory is always forgiven.

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    Re: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Maybe to simple folk.

    I advocate a nation where civilians decide to go to war and then get the **** out of the way so we can win them.

    WWII: "The Greatest Generation." Two atomic bombs over Japan and Germany's Dresen. Decisive victory.

    Korean War: Restrictions and rules by civilains far removed. Civilians controlled the conduct of combat lines and in the end slashed a line across Korea and called it "victory."

    Vietnam War: Restrictions and rules by civilians far removed. Politicians refused to even call it a war, because "conflict" had a better ring to it. After stringing it out, by demanding the military give up land it took the day before and with no end of supply from untouchable Cambodia, we gave up and left.

    Somalia: Restrictions and rules by civilians in the UN who were afraid to fight for the needy and instead opted to pretend that the enmy would just stop being mean. We tucked tail and ran after everybody else did.

    Bosnia: Restrictions and rules by civilians and in the end the country was made safe for human trafficing and weapons runners.

    Afghanistan War: Civilians controlled that war and today seek "alternate" ways to get out.

    Iraq War: Civilains insisting that their plan for war trumped the military's living CENTCOM plan. Civilians insisting that virtually every rule of occupation 101 is ingored. And Fallujah II? That was the result of civilians insisting that we abandon Fallujah I on the ten yard line.


    All of these have something in common. And don't try to state that they are less than conventional, because our wars before the World War were non-conventional. We have a history of winning non-conventional wars. What is in common is that all were places where the military was tossed in before the civilian communuity grew a conscience. Of course, after this conscience was realized, we find ways to remove our military with "victory" being a non-issue. All it took for Afghanistan and Iraq was a few reporters in country right? All of a sudden the thirst for revenge and the desire to have other men kill for them gave way to criticizing what war is.

    Now, let's look at the Gulf War and the turn around in Iraq.

    What names come to mind in the form of leadership during the Gulf War? Is it Bush or is it General Schwarzkopf and General Powell? What names come to mind in the form of Iraq's early misery? Rumsfeld, Cheney? What about after the turn around? Is it General Petraeus? Just these two wars shows us what damage civilians can do even without using the rest of the later half of the twentieth century. If you want war, send the military and get the **** out of the way. Civilians have only proven to make our wars linger on as they deliberate whether or not to be there. Whining about the destruction the military causes seems to trump the fact that the war would already be over had they let the practitioners do their job. Nothing is more dangerous to our troops than civilians who know "exactly" what to do. How many of you perform your own operations? Surely, your surgeon doesn't know what he's doing either.

    By all means, let's pretend that war with North Korea is something we can hug out. In the end, it's only our troops that have to deal with a dug in and prepared enemy. None of the civilians that allowed them to prepare with their nonesense will be there.
    I get what you are saying and agree to an extent, but Article II Section II of the US Constitution clearly spells out that the President (ie civilians) will be in control of the military. That is just the way that it is.

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    Re: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    And why is this? The "Greatest Generation" placed an exclamation mark on their victory with a nuclear bomb. But civilians don't like great anymore do they? They demand perfection. Our wars have been "unwinnable" because civilains interfere. A few waterboarding cases has us branded as Nazis. Former generations didn't have to contend with such things did they? They simply bombed out cities. Victory is always forgiven.
    Well, at that point, we no longer had a nuclear monopoly, and surely we do not want to send a clear message to Russia that the use of nuclear weapons is not a big deal. If we start using weapons like that in Asia, Russia might have decided to go ahead and start using them in Europe.

  9. #139
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    Re: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

    Quote Originally Posted by Polynikes View Post
    Without derailing this thread, the Gulf War was not an incomplete war. We completed our objectives and at the pleas of the Saudis, as well as fear of the disinegration of the coalition, we chose not to go to Baghdad.
    Well we may have achieved the minimal objectives of getting Saddam out of Kuwait. In that we did complete the mission. However we did not solve the problem of Saddam Hussein. We boxed him into a corner and stood idly by as he exacted his revenge against his own citizens he felt betrayed him. IIRC, some of the folks in the southern cities were wary of us coming in the second time, because they believed we were going to liberate them the first time and we left the battlefield. In that, I see it as incomplete.

    Bringing it into the discussion here, IMO we've cut short the efforts since WWII when it came time to make the tough decisions on whether or not to press on. Up until the Iraq war, we've always chose to come home when things got bad, or minimal goals were achieved. North Korea, Vietnam, and Somalia are the prime examples. I fear Afghanistan may be on that list too because I don't see us encouraging infrastructure, which is what is needed most IMO. Iraq already had that, which is why it was able to be turned around easier once we turned the solution over to a general.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

  10. #140
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    Re: NKorea warns of war if punished for ship sinking

    Intermission...

    .



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