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Thread: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

  1. #61
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Mango View Post
    Farts jokes arent really my thing. Obvious distortions of proven fact are really funny.......Sometimes.

    Ok, let's try this one.....'Liberals are right on most issues'.....


    Hey you're right, that is funny......


    j-mac
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I am hoping that you don't use Wiki in your factual searches for class material Joe.

    However, in this case Wiki has some right, and much left out for purposes of arriving at their slant here.




    See, the problem with liberal readings of this famous letter is that, like in most cases, libs tend to omit the important context that makes clear the intent of the letter. Then fall back on a misreading of the 1st Amendment like is done here by another poster.




    Establishment of a religion as clearly seen in Jefferson's letter to Danbury Baptists was that in no way should America establish a "National Religion" fore that was what they were fleeing from in England and the tyranny associated with the head of state also being the head of a national religion.


    It is a cynical approach that liberals have had in this country for some forty plus years now to destroy religion, and adopt some sort of atheist doctrinaire that demonizes anyone as a zealot that happens to believe in God, or think that anyone other than Government has the power to grant rights.

    Think about it, what system wants people to reject God, and all the rights belief in him stand for? One obviously that wants that power over lives, one that wants to control you. Communists.


    j-mac
    -my emphasis-


    Wrong.

    In the letter below Jefferson explains to his attorney general the reason for the wording of his response to the Danbury Baptists, knowing that the response would be a very public communication.

    Jefferson's letter, as he states below, made the statement that any alliance between church and state was illegal, under the authority of the Constitution. This went way beyond the 'national religion' theory in which you believe.


    Thomas Jefferson to Levi Lincoln, January 1, 1802

    Jan 1, 1802.

    Averse to receive addresses, yet unable to prevent them, I have generally endeavored to turn them to some account, by making them the occasion, by way of answer, of sowing useful truths & principles among the people, which might germinate and become rooted among their political tenets. The Baptist address, now enclosed, admits of a condemnation of the alliance between Church and State, under the authority of the Constitution. It furnishes an occasion, too, which I have long wished to find, of saying why I do not proclaim fastings & thanksgivings, as my predecessors did.

    The address, to be sure, does not point at this, & it's introduction is awkward. But I foresee no opportunity of doing it more pertinently. I know it will give great offence to the New England clergy; but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from them. Will you be so good as to examine the answer, and suggest any alterations which might prevent an ill effect, or promote a good one among the people? You understand the temper of those in the North, and can weaken it, therefore, to their stomachs: it is at present seasoned to the Southern taste only. I would ask the favor of you to return it, with the address, in the course of the day or evening. Health & affection.



    Thomas Jefferson to Levi Lincoln, January 1, 1802
    Do not write in this space!

  3. #63
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    This was a fear, but it doesn't limit the amendment to just that. Any religion should not have an impact on any law made. Religion can't be taught in public school because it could conflict with someone being able to practice their religion which may be different to the one being taught in school, which is in violation of the amendment.
    Also separation between Church and State has been held up by the Supreme Court numerous times and IS the policy of this country,
    We are talking about the history of this country not your interpretation of the First Amendment.

    This is what I said? We have a Representative Republic, we vote for people to represent us in government proceedings, and act on our behalf. Did you even read my post, or did you just look at the "very liberal" on my profile, and immediately disagree?
    Then why are you debating the point I made in the first place? We are a republic not a democracy.

    That was a very common way of writing down the date during that time. Its just how they did things.
    It was common because religion was part of their life on a daily basis and you have nothing to prove otherwise.

    I don't care what the personal beliefs of the founding fathers were.
    And that is the key reason liberals like yourself need to stay as far away from textbooks as possible.

    It doesn't matter to me, or this country for that matter.
    Actually, the history of this nation does matter to this country.

    What matters is what they wrote down in the Constitution, which is this country's supreme law. In the Constitution it states that there is to be a separation between church, and state, and that this country shall have no official religion.
    How many times are you going to repeat the same lie? Separation of Church and state is NOT in the constution. Please stop lying and claiming it in there.

    It's all stated out in the first amendment.
    Another lie. No it is not. You are interpreting it that way based on false assumption.

    This country's government will always be secular,and thats the way the founders wanted it.
    Sigh. And yet another lie. Your intreptation flies in the face of history.

    This country was first settled by people who wanted to be free from religious persecution.
    Finally a factual true statement.

    Do you not think the founders knew this? They didn't want this country to become what they left, they wanted this country to be a place where anybody could practice any religion they wanted.
    Again you are once again misintreptating their intentions by ignoring history. They were careful not to establish a specific sect of Christianity by the state. It was not to purge religion from all government life. That is the lie repeated by liberals when they refuse to look at the writings Jefferson wrote that explained the reason for the first amendment when it came to the religious section.

    By making the government secular they ensured that this happens. The majority of this country may be Christian(including myself), but that doesn't make Jews, Muslims, Hindus,or people of any other religious beliefs right to practice their religion in this country without persecution any less important.
    Please, don't tell me I don't know anything about history, I'm a history major, and plan on being an educator.
    Now you are really scaring me. If you are going to teach history, ignoring the key sections of history that explain the hsitory of the documentation written that began this country and replacing it with your own interpretation is the textbook defintion of revisionist history. Its amazing and scary you don't see that.

    I don't claim to know it all, but don't say I'm ignoring history. This country was never meant to be a Christian nation, and the first amendment says it all.
    I can only go by your own words. You have claimed you don't "care" about certain aspects of history that explain the origins of the vcery documentation you are going to teach and you still want to claim you aren't ignoring history?

    You are hitting on the very fear conservatives have of liberals. A disregard of the documentation and life of the founding fathers that created our nation and replacing it with a modern interpretation of the events.

    Don't revise history or use your own interpretation of it. Teach history.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

  4. #64
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    -my emphasis-


    Wrong.

    In the letter below Jefferson explains to his attorney general the reason for the wording of his response to the Danbury Baptists, knowing that the response would be a very public communication.

    Jefferson's letter, as he states below, made the statement that any alliance between church and state was illegal, under the authority of the Constitution. This went way beyond the 'national religion' theory in which you believe.


    Thomas Jefferson to Levi Lincoln, January 1, 1802

    Jan 1, 1802.

    Averse to receive addresses, yet unable to prevent them, I have generally endeavored to turn them to some account, by making them the occasion, by way of answer, of sowing useful truths & principles among the people, which might germinate and become rooted among their political tenets. The Baptist address, now enclosed, admits of a condemnation of the alliance between Church and State, under the authority of the Constitution. It furnishes an occasion, too, which I have long wished to find, of saying why I do not proclaim fastings & thanksgivings, as my predecessors did.

    The address, to be sure, does not point at this, & it's introduction is awkward. But I foresee no opportunity of doing it more pertinently. I know it will give great offence to the New England clergy; but the advocate of religious freedom is to expect neither peace nor forgiveness from them. Will you be so good as to examine the answer, and suggest any alterations which might prevent an ill effect, or promote a good one among the people? You understand the temper of those in the North, and can weaken it, therefore, to their stomachs: it is at present seasoned to the Southern taste only. I would ask the favor of you to return it, with the address, in the course of the day or evening. Health & affection.



    Thomas Jefferson to Levi Lincoln, January 1, 1802
    Wrong again. Jefferson never EVER said that religion as a general practice should be universally excluded from all government. He was very very specific in pointing out that an establishment of religion endorsed by the state was the reason for the 1st amendment.

    You are making interpretations for wording that does not exist.

    If religion was to be completely excluded from all government you would never have religion in any text or wording in the founding papers and we all know that is false.
    Last edited by texmaster; 05-22-10 at 01:39 PM.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

  5. #65
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    huh? The concept of "Separation of Church and State" goes back to the year 500. The Anabaptists also supported it in the 16th century. Both of which predate Locke. Do you think the Founders employed ALL of the ideas of the Enlightenment thinkers? Most of them favored monarchy, BTW, yet still selectively employed the ideas of Locke, Montesquieu and others. Furthermore, the letter you cite was written in 1802, more than a decade after the rafitication of the Constitution AND it is only one person. I challenge you to find the phrase "Separation of Church and State" in the constitution! It isn't there.



    I know MANY who don't teach that. The U.S. is a FEDERAL Democratic Republic TODAY, but it didn't truly start out that way. The U.S. is technically a Constitutional Federal Republic.
    I know about about teaching and what is taught. No one is inaccurately teaching what we are. You may think you know many, but it is likely you just think something that isn't so. What you need is some link to show that misinformation is actually being taught, and not just the opinion of some like minded thinker who has his facts wrong.

    As you claims claim this stuff is being done, the burden of proof lies with you.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  6. #66
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Wrong again. Jefferson never EVER said that religion as a general practice should be universally excluded from all government. He was very very specific in pointing out that an establishment of religion endorsed by the state was the reason for the 1st amendment.

    You are making interpretations for wording that does not exist.

    If religion was to be completely excluded from all government you would never have religion in any text or wording in the founding papers and we all know that is false.
    I used his words, you are misinterpreting them. 'Universally excluded' wasn't discussed:

    The Baptist address, now enclosed, admits of a condemnation of the alliance between Church and State, under the authority of the Constitution.


    No 'alliance' is his wording. You are confusing the issue here.

    Actually, Jefferson himself sometimes used religion as a personal political tool. He had to, after being elected President, because of relentless claims that he was an atheist.
    Do not write in this space!

  7. #67
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I am hoping that you don't use Wiki in your factual searches for class material Joe.

    However, in this case Wiki has some right, and much left out for purposes of arriving at their slant here.




    See, the problem with liberal readings of this famous letter is that, like in most cases, libs tend to omit the important context that makes clear the intent of the letter. Then fall back on a misreading of the 1st Amendment like is done here by another poster.




    Establishment of a religion as clearly seen in Jefferson's letter to Danbury Baptists was that in no way should America establish a "National Religion" fore that was what they were fleeing from in England and the tyranny associated with the head of state also being the head of a national religion.

    It is a cynical approach that liberals have had in this country for some forty plus years now to destroy religion, and adopt some sort of atheist doctrinaire that demonizes anyone as a zealot that happens to believe in God, or think that anyone other than Government has the power to grant rights.

    Think about it, what system wants people to reject God, and all the rights belief in him stand for? One obviously that wants that power over lives, one that wants to control you. Communists.


    j-mac
    Wikipedi is an encyclopedia, and as such not a source used in academic endeavors. The reason is that it is just an over view source. And I only use it here as an overview source, but you can find many more on the writings if you want to.

    And no, our system does not want people to reject God. I went to a Catholic College as a student and there was no difference in their presentation than when I went to the U of I or the University of Northern Michigan. You simply believe things that are factually in correct. Too much American non thinker IMHO.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  8. #68
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    It is a cynical approach that liberals have had in this country for some forty plus years now to destroy religion, and adopt some sort of atheist doctrinaire that demonizes anyone as a zealot that happens to believe in God, or think that anyone other than Government has the power to grant rights.

    Think about it, what system wants people to reject God, and all the rights belief in him stand for? One obviously that wants that power over lives, one that wants to control you. Communists.

    j-mac
    It is amazing how paranoid you are being. If I remember correctly, the Nazis also tried to exterminate religion, and replace it.

    The moment you start making statements like what I quoted, you lose all credibility, and become just another hyper-partisan ideologue.
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  9. #69
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by tryreading View Post
    I used his words, you are misinterpreting them. 'Universally excluded' wasn't discussed:

    The Baptist address, now enclosed, admits of a condemnation of the alliance between Church and State, under the authority of the Constitution.


    No 'alliance' is his wording. You are confusing the issue here.
    I'm not confusing anything.

    Your interpretation claiming that Jefferson wished exclusion of all religion from government is a false premise.

    Either produce the exact quote that supports you or retract the claim.

    And please stop ignoring the context. It was about the establishment of religion not the exclusion of it.

    Actually, Jefferson himself sometimes used religion as a personal political tool. He had to, after being elected President, because of relentless claims that he was an atheist.
    Another lie.

    My God man, are you going to be that transparent? Do you have any evidence of his declaration of atheism?

    Of course you don't because its just another revision of history.

    Jefferson wrote, "I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others. ... I am a real Christian -- that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

    There is my direct evidence. Where is yours?
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

  10. #70
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by ludahai View Post
    Heaven forbid that we actually teach what the influences of our Founding Fathers were...
    I agree. Let's teach them about ALL the founding fathers though, including Thomas Jefferson.


    Heaven forbid that we teach students what the government of the US REALLY is...
    I agree again, but let's teach Republicans that we are a Constitutional Republic. They are the one's who say "We are spreading democracy around the world at the force of our guns." How can we spread something that we aren't?

    Heaven forbid we actually teach some BASIC economic understanding.
    No negative comments about this. I actually agree 100%.
    Vote John Schnatter (Papa John) 2012!

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