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Thread: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

  1. #51
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No says it was written in the constitution. It comes from the writings of the founding fathers:

    Reflecting a concept often credited in its original form to the English political philosopher John Locke,[1] the phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to the letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state.[2] The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.
    huh? The concept of "Separation of Church and State" goes back to the year 500. The Anabaptists also supported it in the 16th century. Both of which predate Locke. Do you think the Founders employed ALL of the ideas of the Enlightenment thinkers? Most of them favored monarchy, BTW, yet still selectively employed the ideas of Locke, Montesquieu and others. Furthermore, the letter you cite was written in 1802, more than a decade after the rafitication of the Constitution AND it is only one person. I challenge you to find the phrase "Separation of Church and State" in the constitution! It isn't there.

    Show me anyone who doesn't teach that we're a democratic republic. You asking a dumb ass question as if someone actually does what you claims isn't anything to respond to.
    I know MANY who don't teach that. The U.S. is a FEDERAL Democratic Republic TODAY, but it didn't truly start out that way. The U.S. is technically a Constitutional Federal Republic.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    This country was first settled by people who wanted to be free from religious persecution. Do you not think the founders knew this? They didn't want this country to become what they left, they wanted this country to be a place where anybody could practice any religion they wanted.
    Actually, many of the first settlers in the English colonies left England to practice their own religion and then proceded to IMPOSE it on others. The Puritans were influenced by many of Calvin's ideas, and one of those ideas was to create a theocracy, much as he practiced in Geneva when he led that city. Those ideas were brought to Great Britain by John Knox where he founded Presbyterianism in Scotland. This and another offshoot in the Netherlands influenced the thinking of the Puritans in England. The same Puritans who imposed their religion on others in the Massachusetts Bay colony as well as England when Oliver Cromwell became military dictator.

    This was the development in Massachusetts, and we know the importance of Mass.

    Also, the Federalist Papers. Two comments on those. 1. That was the handiwork of THREE men -- hardly representative of all of the delegates to the Constitutional Convention or the conventions in the states ratifying the document. 2. If you read the document and understood the intellectual history of many of the ideas present, you would realize that many of them PRECEED the Enlightenment and have Christian antecedents.
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  3. #53
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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No says it was written in the constitution. It comes from the writings of the founding fathers:

    Reflecting a concept often credited in its original form to the English political philosopher John Locke,[1] the phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to the letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state.[2] The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.

    Separation of church and state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I am hoping that you don't use Wiki in your factual searches for class material Joe.

    However, in this case Wiki has some right, and much left out for purposes of arriving at their slant here.

    Thomas Jefferson was a man of deep religious conviction - his conviction was that religion was a very personal matter, one which the government had no business getting involved in. He was vilified by his political opponents for his role in the passage of the 1786 Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom and for his criticism of such biblical truths as the Great Flood and the theological age of the Earth. As president, he discontinued the practice started by his predecessors George Washington and John Adams of proclaiming days of fasting and thanksgiving. He was a staunch believer in the separation of church and state.

    Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them written in October 1801. A copy of the Danbury letter is available here. The Danbury Baptists were a religious minority in Connecticut, and they complained that in their state, the religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature as "favors granted." Jefferson's reply did not address their concerns about problems with state establishment of religion - only of establishment on the national level. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which led to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."

    The letter was the subject of intense scrutiny by Jefferson, and he consulted a couple of New England politicians to assure that his words would not offend while still conveying his message: it was not the place of the Congress or the Executive to do anything that might be misconstrued as the establishment of religion.

    Note: The bracketed section in the second paragraph had been blocked off for deletion in the final draft of the letter sent to the Danbury Baptists, though it was not actually deleted in Jefferson's draft of the letter. It is included here for completeness. Reflecting upon his knowledge that the letter was far from a mere personal correspondence, Jefferson deleted the block, he noted in the margin, to avoid offending members of his party in the eastern states.

    This is a transcript of the letter as stored online at the Library of Congress, and reflects Jefferson's spelling and punctuation.

    Mr. President

    To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

    Gentlemen

    The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

    I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

    (signed) Thomas Jefferson
    Jan.1.1802.

    Jefferson's Wall of Separation Letter - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

    See, the problem with liberal readings of this famous letter is that, like in most cases, libs tend to omit the important context that makes clear the intent of the letter. Then fall back on a misreading of the 1st Amendment like is done here by another poster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star
    'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof'.....

    Establishment of a religion as clearly seen in Jefferson's letter to Danbury Baptists was that in no way should America establish a "National Religion" fore that was what they were fleeing from in England and the tyranny associated with the head of state also being the head of a national religion.

    It is a cynical approach that liberals have had in this country for some forty plus years now to destroy religion, and adopt some sort of atheist doctrinaire that demonizes anyone as a zealot that happens to believe in God, or think that anyone other than Government has the power to grant rights.

    Think about it, what system wants people to reject God, and all the rights belief in him stand for? One obviously that wants that power over lives, one that wants to control you. Communists.


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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I wonder if they will say that Constitutional Republics were first advocated by Liberals. Doubt it.
    Ah - the High Queen of Drive-By Sophistry appears yet again...

    Classical American liberals, rather than Modern American liberals such as yourself, created this Constitutional Republic. People like you refer to people professing the ideals of Classical American liberals as "right wing nutjobs"; you trying to associate your ideolocial positions with theirs is quite laughable.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 05-22-10 at 11:17 AM.

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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No says it was written in the constitution. It comes from the writings of the founding fathers:

    Reflecting a concept often credited in its original form to the English political philosopher John Locke,[1] the phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to the letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state.[2] The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.
    Just so we get this straight...
    Do you or do you not hold the position that "original intent" - that is, the arguments and positions held by those that wrote the Constitution as to what the clauses used in the Constituton are supposed to mean - should be the guiding principle in the judicial interpreation of the Constitution?

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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    C'mon, aren't you hoping that those new social studies books have Jesus riding a dinosaur somewhere in there? How sweet would THAT be!?
    Jesus riding a dinosaur? Never heard that one.

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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Mango View Post
    Jesus riding a dinosaur? Never heard that one.


    Yeah, that was clever, wasn't it? Jesus riding a dinosaur....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    How about this, I'm going to type the word FART! you'll probably wet your pants.


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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Mango View Post
    Jesus riding a dinosaur? Never heard that one.
    My question is...

    Why couldn't Jesus rude a dinosaur? What precludes such a thing?

    And, as an aside...
    In my AD&D days, I had a minotaur that rode a triceratops. All kinds of cool.

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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Yeah, that was clever, wasn't it? Jesus riding a dinosaur....HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    How about this, I'm going to type the word FART! you'll probably wet your pants.


    j-mac
    Farts jokes arent really my thing. Obvious distortions of proven fact are really funny.......Sometimes.
    Last edited by Vic Mango; 05-22-10 at 12:23 PM. Reason: clarity

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    Re: Texas board adopts new social studies curriculum

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    My question is...

    Why couldn't Jesus rude a dinosaur? What precludes such a thing?

    And, as an aside...
    In my AD&D days, I had a minotaur that rode a triceratops. All kinds of cool.
    That does sound cool. Please dont teach it in a classroom as historical fact.

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