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Drug Czar admits the drug war is a failure.

Jetboogieman said:
But unfortunately, what is the solution? I mean I'm all for legalzing marijuana, but no hard core drugs, they're such a threat to the population. I mean in some ways I guess you could justify it by saying that people that wanna do it, are gonna do it anyway.

I don't know. there's no way we can legalize hard drugs, and this "war on drugs" is unsustainable.
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Let the states handle it.

And I'm not sure what effect you think drug laws are currently having on "hard drugs", because they certainly aren't stopping anyone from using them.
 
Taylor said:
After we cease the war on drugs and legalize the stuff - maybe next we can finally admit that this whole "police force" thing was a mistake as well. Crime has only gotten worse and we've created a big problem in having people dependent on others for their protection. Hell, we've been trying to "fight crime" in this country for 100's of years and it's STILL here? WTF? Stupid Americans never learn the lessons of history!

If you cannot defeat crime, there are only two choices: keep wasting money on a futile civilian police force, or just let people be people.

Freedom baby! FREEDOM!

YouTube- Druggies Speak Out Against Law Enforcement
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Except drug use is not a real "crime". It's just something you find distasteful or immoral.

Boy, you "small government" conservatives are a funny bunch, aren't you?
 
Even U.S. drug czar Gil Kerlikowske concedes the strategy hasn't worked.
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Holy **** - an honest politician!

I love this guy for his admittance an acceptance.
 
Taylor said:
After we cease the war on drugs and legalize the stuff - maybe next we can finally admit that this whole "police force" thing was a mistake as well. Crime has only gotten worse and we've created a big problem in having people dependent on others for their protection. Hell, we've been trying to "fight crime" in this country for 100's of years and it's STILL here? WTF? Stupid Americans never learn the lessons of history!

If you cannot defeat crime, there are only two choices: keep wasting money on a futile civilian police force, or just let people be people.

Freedom baby! FREEDOM!

YouTube- Druggies Speak Out Against Law Enforcement
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Nobody is saying we should stop fighting crime, just that we should be more reasonable about what we define as crime.
 
stekim said:
Of course. When you are busy fighting victimless crime you have less resources to fight real crime. But by all means let's keep doing what we've been doing even though the government itself admits it's not working. We'll follow Taylor's lead and throw another trillion at it. That should work. Let's ban even more stuff. That will make it work even better.
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Hmmm...Seems like this sentiment could be applied to the so called "War on Poverty" as well could it not?


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Hmmm...Seems like this sentiment could be applied to the so called "War on Poverty" as well could it not?


j-mac
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Agreed. Let the states handle that, too.
 
stekim said:
AP IMPACT: US drug war has met none of its goals - Yahoo! News

Of course, many of us have been saying this for decades and already knew it was true, but it's nice to see the world catching up. The line from the article that sums it all up:
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Well, when the FBI / CIA have been CAUGHT MANY TIMES over the years shipping the drugs INTO america while other agents are out busting the petty nickle-and-dime dealers rather then focusing on this within their ranks working against the cause....

Is it really a wonder why the drug war is at best a fraud?
 
BmanMcfly said:
Well, when the FBI / CIA have been CAUGHT MANY TIMES over the years shipping the drugs INTO america while other agents are out busting the petty nickle-and-dime dealers rather then focusing on this within their ranks working against the cause....

Is it really a wonder why the drug war is at best a fraud?
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Just another government takeover of private industry.:rofl
 
j-mac said:
Hmmm...Seems like this sentiment could be applied to the so called "War on Poverty" as well could it not?


j-mac
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war on poverty, war on terrorism, war on obesity...

Hell, its been some time since america's actually engaged in a 'war' whose advertised outcome has been anything close to a victory...

Sure, we've all but won the war in Iraq, and afghanistan, but the underlying 'war on terrorism' cannot conceivably succeed.
 
Taylor said:
After we cease the war on drugs and legalize the stuff - maybe next we can finally admit that this whole "police force" thing was a mistake as well. Crime has only gotten worse and we've created a big problem in having people dependent on others for their protection. Hell, we've been trying to "fight crime" in this country for 100's of years and it's STILL here? WTF? Stupid Americans never learn the lessons of history!

If you cannot defeat crime, there are only two choices: keep wasting money on a futile civilian police force, or just let people be people.

Freedom baby! FREEDOM!

YouTube- Druggies Speak Out Against Law Enforcement
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WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl
 
Kandahar said:
The main reason that hardcore drugs are such a threat to the population is BECAUSE they're illegal. If they were legal, you wouldn't have the black market and all the associated violence. You could also prevent at least SOME of the deaths due to overdoses, because people wouldn't have to rely on a criminal to supply their drugs and they'd know exactly how much they were getting.
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There is no world in which someone can safely use methamphetamine.

I have no problem with legalizing marijuana, but legalization of cocaine, crack, methamphetamine, rohypnol, ecstasy and heroin should not happen, in my opinion.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
There is no world in which someone can safely use methamphetamine.

I have no problem with legalizing marijuana, but legalization of cocaine, crack, methamphetamine, rohypnol, ecstasy and heroin should not happen, in my opinion.
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You act as if the current laws are having any effect on these hard drugs. Since people still use them quite frequently, they're obviously not working.

Do you think a statistically significant portion of new people would start using in the event they were legalized? I don't know why you would think that.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
There is no world in which someone can safely use methamphetamine.
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Making it illegal doesn't make it go away. It just drives it underground and makes it more dangerous. If it was legal, then A) you could at least *mitigate* the danger of using the drug, and B) you could completely *eliminate* the danger of buying/selling the drug or being around someone who does.

Catz Part Deux said:
I have no problem with legalizing marijuana, but legalization of cocaine, crack, methamphetamine, rohypnol, ecstasy and heroin should not happen, in my opinion.
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This, of course, is predicated on the assumption that dangerous things must be banned and that fewer people will be in danger if they are banned. I see absolutely no evidence for that assumption...and in fact, I see overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
 
BmanMcfly said:
war on poverty, war on terrorism, war on obesity...

Hell, its been some time since america's actually engaged in a 'war' whose advertised outcome has been anything close to a victory...

Sure, we've all but won the war in Iraq, and afghanistan, but the underlying 'war on terrorism' cannot conceivably succeed.
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It must succeed. There isn't a choice in that matter to anyone that understands what a caliphate is in Islam, or to anyone that knows about, and understands Twelver mindset.

I would agree that Terrorism from radical sects of Islam are a bastardization of the religion, but but only slightly. Islam is a violent religion that believes that it is proper to subjugate people, and thrust their belief by force if necessary. It is that which we are fighting. Remember we didn't start this.


j-mac
 
digsbe said:
I think we need to get other countries to help participate. May of these countries that have people smuggling drugs into America don't take the war on drugs seriously. They aren't holding up their end. I have mixed feelings about legalizing marijuana, but we should certainly keep hard drugs illegal (like crack and heroine). Our laws are strict enough when it comes to punishing drug abusers so I wouldn't say increasing punishments would solve the issue, in fact they should lessen the punishments and have them pay a massive fine (to maybe help offset the cost for the war on drugs). If anything we should get foreign governments to do their part in preventing smugglers from leaving their country, and we should be offering deals to drug users to give info on who dealers are so we can catch them. Hopefully little by little we will put dents in it here and there by arresting known dealers and working with foreign governments.
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That's not going to work either. For one, those countries don't have the tax revenue to pay for the law enforcement needed to do the War on Drugs as much as the U.S. does. That means that not only do the drug cartels pay their enforcers better than the government pays their law enforcement, it also means that law enforcement officers and politicians are easily corruptible by taking bribes from the drug cartels.

For another, many countries such as those in South America and especially Afghanistan only have "drug agriculture" as their major cash crop. They don't grow marijuana and poppies because they want to grow them - they grow those things because they're the only things they can grow to sell.

And it doesn't matter what kind of deals an informant makes with the government when a cartel can send a hitman anywhere in the world, whether it be in prison or out of prison, to make an example of a snitch by giving a Colombian necktie as a present.
 
Catz Part Deux said:
There is no world in which someone can safely use methamphetamine.

I have no problem with legalizing marijuana, but legalization of cocaine, crack, methamphetamine, rohypnol, ecstasy and heroin should not happen, in my opinion.
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I think that we should legalize all drug use, however we can still give employers the right to fire people based on taking recreational drugs while employed.

And if we do this, I think anyone who commits manslaughter while under the influence should automatically receive a life sentence, but can go on lifetime parole after 20 years. If someone's going to do drugs we're going to damn well make sure they can do so responsibly and they don't hurt anyone else when they do.
 
samsmart said:
I think that we should legalize all drug use, however we can still give employers the right to fire people based on taking recreational drugs while employed.

And if we do this, I think anyone who commits manslaughter while under the influence should automatically receive a life sentence, but can go on lifetime parole after 20 years. If someone's going to do drugs we're going to damn well make sure they can do so responsibly and they don't hurt anyone else when they do.
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So, at bottom line it is a control thing?


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
So, at bottom line it is a control thing?
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Bottom line, it's a coping thing.

People take recreational drugs to cope with stress. That's the basic fundamental reason why they do. Now the kind of stress might be different. One guy might smoke a joint because he had a bad day at work, while someone else might drink every night because he's suffering from PTSD caused by some traumatic event in his life.

Either way, they are both coping with their individual lives, and I think that costs and hardships in making those drugs criminal is more than the costs and hardships of those people using those drugs.

So rather than spend all that money on criminalizing drugs, I say we should instead spend that money on prevention and treatment centers for those drug users who want to learn some other coping skills and stay off their addiction. For those who want to stay addicted or can't stay sober, I say we don't lock them in jail for it as long as they don't hurt anyone else.
 
samsmart said:
Bottom line, it's a coping thing.
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So is self injury, but we have mechanisms in place that don't allow that either.


People take recreational drugs to cope with stress. That's the basic fundamental reason why they do. Now the kind of stress might be different. One guy might smoke a joint because he had a bad day at work, while someone else might drink every night because he's suffering from PTSD caused by some traumatic event in his life.
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So becoming a heroin addict is the only way to cope with PTSD? Legalizing this sort of behavior is a failure where it has been tried before.


Either way, they are both coping with their individual lives, and I think that costs and hardships in making those drugs criminal is more than the costs and hardships of those people using those drugs.
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I will agree only to the point of inane, benign drugs such as pot. In other cases however, tough. I think that people make a choice to break the law, knowing that they are doing such.


So rather than spend all that money on criminalizing drugs, I say we should instead spend that money on prevention and treatment centers for those drug users who want to learn some other coping skills and stay off their addiction. For those who want to stay addicted or can't stay sober, I say we don't lock them in jail for it as long as they don't hurt anyone else.
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Problem is, that in your scenario, someone has to get hurt, or killed before action.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
So is self injury, but we have mechanisms in place that don't allow that either.
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But so is smoking, but that's legal now.

j-mac said:
So becoming a heroin addict is the only way to cope with PTSD? Legalizing this sort of behavior is a failure where it has been tried before.
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I never said heroin use is the only way to cope with PTSD. The best way to cope with PTSD is to get counseling. However, for those who do cope with PTSD by using heroin I'd prefer that they use heroin to cope rather than be jailed with violent criminals who could do them harm, including rape and death, for their heroin use.

j-mac said:
I will agree only to the point of inane, benign drugs such as pot. In other cases however, tough. I think that people make a choice to break the law, knowing that they are doing such.
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I don't think that that's a choice that people should make that breaks the law.

j-mac said:
Problem is, that in your scenario, someone has to get hurt, or killed before action.
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The same could be said of vehicular manslaughter. Does that mean we should criminalize automobiles?
 
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Catz Part Deux said:
There is no world in which someone can safely use methamphetamine.

I have no problem with legalizing marijuana, but legalization of cocaine, crack, methamphetamine, rohypnol, ecstasy and heroin should not happen, in my opinion.
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We need to legalize them all and treat the resulting drug problem rather than keeping them a criminal problem.

You can safely use methamphetamine, crack, cocaine, ecstasy and heroin. Not sure about rohypnol.
 
reefedjib said:
We need to legalize them all and treat the resulting drug problem rather than keeping them a criminal problem.

You can safely use methamphetamine, crack, cocaine, ecstasy and heroin. Not sure about rohypnol.
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If that is true then why are countries like Holland moving away from legal drug use?


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
If that is true then why are countries like Holland moving away from legal drug use?


j-mac
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I don't know anything about it. Do you have a link?
 
reefedjib said:
I don't know anything about it. Do you have a link?
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Apparently, there has been some public dissatisfaction with the government’s policy. Recently the Dutch government began considering scaling back the quantity of marijuana available in coffee shops from 5 to 3 grams.

Furthermore, drug abuse has increased in the Netherlands. From 1984 to 1996, marijuana use among 18-25 year olds in Holland increased twofold. Since legalization of marijuana, heroin addiction levels in Holland have tripled and perhaps even quadrupled by some estimates.

The increasing use of marijuana is responsible for more than increased crime. It has widespread social implications as well. The head of Holland’s best-known drug abuse rehabilitation center has described what the new drug culture has created: The strong form of marijuana that most of the young people smoke, he says, produces “a chronically passive individual—someone who is lazy, who doesn’t want to take initiatives, doesn’t want to be active—the kid who’d prefer to lie in bed with a joint in the morning rather than getting up and doing something.”


Speaking Out Against Drug Legalization, Fact 9
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Hmmm.....doesn't sound like Utopia to me.


j-mac
 
j-mac said:
Hmmm.....doesn't sound like Utopia to me.


j-mac
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Well, I never claimed utopia, that's impossible. There are always trade-offs. I am not concerned with marijuana usage as its addictiveness is small. Users don't harm anyone. That they are unmotivated is their own problem, not the government's problem. Taking drugs is not criminal as others are not harmed.

The increase of heroin use is a concern, since it IS a highly addictive drug. Making it illegal doesn't solve that problem, it only creates a criminal distribution problem we don't need. Addressing the addiction and increased use has to be by education.
 
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