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Thread: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

  1. #251
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Then I guess our experiences shall have to differ. I can not imagine that every, single, solitary, construction job for every single country over the entire united states...to a singularity...are all going to vanish and cease to exist if there were no illegal immigrant workers. Which is what you're arguing. Actually, you're not even arguing that. Any illegal immigrant working in fast food...that job won't get filled, even if its at a 5:1 ratio. Any illegal immigrant working on a farm? That farm will apparently not hire anyone new, or will just close down. I can think of half a dozen bars immedietely in a few mile radious around my house whose barbacks are most likely illegal immigrants...you're suggseting that every one of those bars is going to close up shop, or just stop having barbacks. I've worked for a number of hotels where I've been very curious as to the citizenship of a good portion of the cleaning staff...apparently every one of those hotels are going to shut down, or just stop having cleaners. And on and on.

    Sorry, I understand your experience in construction...and while I can not fathom every single construction compamy in the entire U.S. that hires any illegals all just closing shop...even if we assume that's true that is hardly all the jobs that illegals make up. What you're suggesting is that all sorts of business the entire united states over is going to shut down because of this to have literally "zero impact" on unemployment...that just doesn't make sense.
    Typically, companies there will be a mix of both legal and illegal employees.

    The shops that would close are the ones that hire primarily illegals. The one's that hire primarily legals would be the ones to stay open.

    The legals that lose their jobs when some shops close will replace the illegals lost in the other jobs.

    This is because, on average, immigrants, both legal and illegal, will take less money than Americans and work harder than Americans at those prices.

    I've been a barback and I've done construction. But I'm a rarity amongst natural-born citizens.

    So I would expect some shifting of employment, but no actual gains in jobs.
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  2. #252
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    If we as a country believe that the minimum wage should be $7/hr, then every person working in this country should be earning $7/hr+.
    I can't speak for other industries and other places, but in Chicago, most illegals in construction make more than minimum wage.

    Find me some Americans who'll work construction for $10 an hour, though, when they can get an easy job at some store for $7 an hour. I'll hire them right nw and start up my company again. I can't even find these people now, in this economy.
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 05-17-10 at 05:14 PM.
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  3. #253
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    My own city is making me puke. This is a city that feels the pinch because of illegal immigration probably even moreso than Arizona, and we're going to boycott a city that is doing something about it? Shame on my city council. They've run this city to the ground. We're about to go bankrupt and they're going to lecture Arizona about morality?
    It's more about support from Mexicans than right or wrong. IOW, just more politics.

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Do you have a link for the claim that these two forces balance out? Nobody is denying that they exist, but I think it's pretty hard to argue that the introduction of a huge, unregulated labor force into an economy will not increase unemployment among the citizenry.
    In the long run it is entirely the case. Minimum wage has more of an effect on employment than we seem to think. There are payroll taxes, social security, healthcare, disability, etc. All of these things mean that a company has to pay much more than $7 an hour just to hire someone. Would you say that nearly everyone in this country would earn that much? Maybe 95%?

    As for lingering unemployment, that's due to people not wanting to take a hit in wages. Extending unemployment benefits makes this effect even worse.

    We ignore the fact that cheaper labor gives us cheap products. We don't get prosperity by making sure that everyone is paid a lot. Prosperity is in the things we produce, not our wages. As such, it is imperative that we focus on production and not wages.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  5. #255
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post

    These impacts will certainly exist, but at the margins. Plenty of people already pay "full price" for lawn mowing or apple picking. The effects would be nowhere near as serious as you're claiming.
    Then if what you say is really what's happening, the inclusion of illegals would not have such a negative impact on costs of goods and services but now, DO have an impact on private and government services such that, by them being here and continuing to be illegally here - living, working (illegally), and using private and publicly available resourced paid by tax payers - they're getting more than they give. That actually provides MORE impetus in my view, to have these people deported.

    By giving them a type of "amnesty" or registering them and giving them a legal pathway to citizenship - how does this help the stresses put on the system and the taxpayers? Isn't it a possibility that since they will be citizens that they no longer would want to work for $10 an hour but now demand $20. Or that they would apply more so for unemployment... like my dead beat cousins do as they claim they get more with unemployment than if they worked.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  6. #256
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I can't speak for other industries and other places, but in Chicago, most illegals in construction make more than minimum wage.

    Find me some Americans who'll work construction for $10 an hour, though, when they can get an easy job at some store for $7 an hour. I'll hire them right nw and start up my company again. I can't even find these people now, in this economy.
    But the two aren't directly comparable, for the reasons that phattonez refers to below. If you're paying both illegals and a citizen $10/hr, the cost is much different - both you and the employee have to pay payroll/disability/etc. taxes. You also have to factor in the risk that a citizen will file a complaint/sue you for back wages, which is nearly non-existent with illegals.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    In the long run it is entirely the case. Minimum wage has more of an effect on employment than we seem to think. There are payroll taxes, social security, healthcare, disability, etc. All of these things mean that a company has to pay much more than $7 an hour just to hire someone. Would you say that nearly everyone in this country would earn that much? Maybe 95%?

    As for lingering unemployment, that's due to people not wanting to take a hit in wages. Extending unemployment benefits makes this effect even worse.

    We ignore the fact that cheaper labor gives us cheap products. We don't get prosperity by making sure that everyone is paid a lot. Prosperity is in the things we produce, not our wages. As such, it is imperative that we focus on production and not wages.
    I'm not sure how this proves that there would be no impact on employment. Imagine that tomorrow morning, 100m people showed up who were willing to work 80 hr weeks for $.01/hr. Most citizens who could be replaced would be, thus increasing unemployment. The effect is obviously lessened here, but I don't see how it's non existent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Then if what you say is really what's happening, the inclusion of illegals would not have such a negative impact on costs of goods and services but now, DO have an impact on private and government services such that, by them being here and continuing to be illegally here - living, working (illegally), and using private and publicly available resourced paid by tax payers - they're getting more than they give. That actually provides MORE impetus in my view, to have these people deported.

    By giving them a type of "amnesty" or registering them and giving them a legal pathway to citizenship - how does this help the stresses put on the system and the taxpayers? Isn't it a possibility that since they will be citizens that they no longer would want to work for $10 an hour but now demand $20. Or that they would apply more so for unemployment... like my dead beat cousins do as they claim they get more with unemployment than if they worked.
    I think that's more of an issue of our social service structure than of our labor market.
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  7. #257
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    But the two aren't directly comparable, for the reasons that phattonez refers to below. If you're paying both illegals and a citizen $10/hr, the cost is much different - both you and the employee have to pay payroll/disability/etc. taxes. You also have to factor in the risk that a citizen will file a complaint/sue you for back wages, which is nearly non-existent with illegals.
    Studies have shown that many, if not most illegals, are paying taxes to some degree, so the owner still puts in payroll taxes anyway. Most of the guys I knew who hired illegals payed the same to Uncle Sam whether it was a illegal or legal that they hired.
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  8. #258
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I'm not sure how this proves that there would be no impact on employment. Imagine that tomorrow morning, 100m people showed up who were willing to work 80 hr weeks for $.01/hr. Most citizens who could be replaced would be, thus increasing unemployment. The effect is obviously lessened here, but I don't see how it's non existent.
    It's simple economics, even if we ignore the obvious exaggeration of the example. People will work wherever they can get the highest wages. Wages would go up quickly in this regard. Would people be out of work? Yeah, temporarily. However, those new workers would also be buying things, creating new jobs. So people will eventually get new jobs. We just need to make sure that people are at those jobs where their services are best used so that we get the most production. The more production, the lower the price of goods. That helps everyone, no matter what unemployment is.

    There's a reason we don't follow the iron law of wages anymore.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  9. #259
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Studies have shown that many, if not most illegals, are paying taxes to some degree, so the owner still puts in payroll taxes anyway. Most of the guys I knew who hired illegals payed the same to Uncle Sam whether it was a illegal or legal that they hired.
    Anecdotally that may be true, but the way that the number of illegals is calculated is just worthless. They look at the census, see how many are here from out of the country, see how many are supposed to be here from out of the country, and then add 50% to determine the number of illegals here (from what I can remember). That may be the best way to count it, but it's completely imprecise, so most likely inaccurate.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  10. #260
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Anecdotally that may be true, but the way that the number of illegals is calculated is just worthless. They look at the census, see how many are here from out of the country, see how many are supposed to be here from out of the country, and then add 50% to determine the number of illegals here (from what I can remember). That may be the best way to count it, but it's completely imprecise, so most likely inaccurate.
    My experiential knowledge of the subject is not in conflict with those estimates. But that would only relate to construction specifically in Chicago.
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