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Thread: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    So you're arguing that adding 6+ million people (assuming a low number 12 million illegals, and assuming half of them work which is likely low) to the work force has absolutely 0 impact on unemployment of legal citizens? Based on....?
    You are assuming that removing the illegals will automatically lead to employing legals. This is not true. Many companies would probably end up closing shop because the increased wages they'd have to pay would eliminate their profits.

    Plus, legal residents expect healthcare etc, which will drive up costs even further for the business owner. In the end, most of them will simply close up rather than deal with the increased hassles for what would end up being pennies.
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    That's the fallacy of the Capitalist system. Sure...it might work for something like farming where the product is perishable.
    The harsh reality is that most companies are going to pay the lowest wage possible. If it means shipping operations and jobs overseas, so be it, as long as it helps the CEO's bottom line.
    And considering that the vast, vast majority of jobs performed by illegal immigrants are service jobs that cannot be shipped overseas, this is entirely irrelevant.

    Capitalism works best for the corporation when there are enough hungry people around that will take the job for what the company is willing to pay.
    Exactly, which is why a huge labor pool makes employers happy.

    The fact of the matter is, even in farming...if the company suddenly has to pay $10 an hour for workers, the price of Strawberries is going to double. People are not going to pay $7 a pound for strawberries and so demand will go down. The company isn't going to take a loss, they will just cut supply and cut workers...so in the end, you haven't really created more jobs that those brown-skinned people were stealing in the first place.
    So your theory is that 100% of the cost of strawberries comes from the labor used to pick them? Completely incorrect.

    The practical result would indeed be minor inflation, but I didn't know you were so in favor of preventing inflation that you supported policies that increased American unemployment. You must be positively enthralled by Walmart's overseas purchasing habits.

    And again with the hilarity: You realize that the argument you're making re: strawberries is identical to the argument against a minimum wage?

    "The fact of the matter is, even in farming...if the company suddenly has to pay $7 an hour to his employees, the price of Strawberries is going to double. People are not going to pay $7 a pound for strawberries and so demand will go down. The company isn't going to take a loss, they will just cut supply and cut workers...so in the end, you haven't really created more jobs. That's why employers should be free to pay their employees whatever they want."
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You are assuming that removing the illegals will automatically lead to employing legals. This is not true. Many companies would probably end up closing shop because the increased wages they'd have to pay would eliminate their profits.

    Plus, legal residents expect healthcare etc, which will drive up costs even further for the business owner. In the end, most of them will simply close up rather than deal with the increased hassles for what would end up being pennies.
    And yet even if that happened to say...2/3rds of the potential jobs that those 6 million in my theoritical took up, that'd still allow for 2 million legal citizens to have jobs that previously wouldn't.

    What the poster in question is suggestion by saying it'd have no impact on unemployment is that every single one of those jobs filled by illegals would somehow cease to be should illegals not be there to fill them, or that the net effect in regards to his theoritical "jobs created based on them being here" and the loss of those would somehow come out to 0.

    I can't fathom any scenario where that could be in any way shape or form true.

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Short term, removing all illegals may cause landscaping to rise to $350 a lawn cut, or apples to $10 per lb. Long term? Dunno.
    People would go back to doing their own lawns (i.e. force their kids to do it)?

    Apples aren't labor-intensive, so the cost wouldn't change as much as say, strawberries. Though the cost to consumers would go up - I'll bet they'd go back to selling by the pint (little green baskets) than by the pound (large recangular containers). As it is, a third of my strawberries go bad before I eat them anyway.

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Woah woah woah, if we're going to turn this into an economic discussion, let's get some things straight. The illegal label makes them get lower wages. Why? Employers take more risk by hiring an illegal. Because they cannot get into this country legally, they are forced to take lower wages (this is all assuming a situation without minimum wage).

    Secondly, you say that immigration has an impact on unemployment. Sure, in the short-term. Meanwhile, all of your products are cheaper because of more competition in the labor market. Have we forgotten that production creates its own demand? The illegals that are working are also buying. You do know that creates jobs, right?

    So immigrants drive down costs, they have no impact on unemployment in the long run. Why do we cap immigration then? Because of unfounded fears based on outdated economic models.
    Do you have a link for the claim that these two forces balance out? Nobody is denying that they exist, but I think it's pretty hard to argue that the introduction of a huge, unregulated labor force into an economy will not increase unemployment among the citizenry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with this. There's indirect consequences. What I'd like to see done is a comparison... benefits vs. detriment.

    For example... benefits of an illegal immigrant of x% who work in the U.S. illegally is that:


    If illegal workers were all banished --- what would the costs be short term for things like landscaping, migrant vegetable workers and impacts to groceries / food, etc... vs. the existing cost on the geneal population, government and taxpayer to keep illegals, their family and children here in this country. What are the costs of education, health care, dentistry, government programs, housing, etc.

    I'm sure it may still be beneficial to have illegals here working - if it weren't then government would have been turning a blind eye to it for all these decades but we're talking about government --- not people. Government doesn't care about people's money... the people do. So if the people finally say "enough" - it's now up to the government to tell us why keeping a slave class of people here in this country is so beneficial.

    Short term, removing all illegals may cause landscaping to rise to $350 a lawn cut, or apples to $10 per lb. Long term? Dunno.
    These impacts will certainly exist, but at the margins. Plenty of people already pay "full price" for lawn mowing or apple picking. The effects would be nowhere near as serious as you're claiming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    You are assuming that removing the illegals will automatically lead to employing legals. This is not true. Many companies would probably end up closing shop because the increased wages they'd have to pay would eliminate their profits.

    Plus, legal residents expect healthcare etc, which will drive up costs even further for the business owner. In the end, most of them will simply close up rather than deal with the increased hassles for what would end up being pennies.
    As above, some of this will certainly happen, but only at the margins, as the vast majority of businesses do not employ illegals.

    Either way, the fact that something might lead to increased prices is not an argument for exempting people from laws, particularly where the people who are profiting from it are those who are breaking the law.
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And yet even if that happened to say...2/3rds of the potential jobs that those 6 million in my theoritical took up, that'd still allow for 2 million legal citizens to have jobs that previously wouldn't.

    What the poster in question is suggestion by saying it'd have no impact on unemployment is that every single one of those jobs filled by illegals would somehow cease to be should illegals not be there to fill them, or that the net effect in regards to his theoritical "jobs created based on them being here" and the loss of those would somehow come out to 0.

    I can't fathom any scenario where that could be in any way shape or form true.
    I can easily fathom that scenario.

    But I've run a construction company before. The only one's that would stick around are the one's that already have legal residents as their primary work force.

    The one's that employ illegals would close shop because they were designed to undercut the bids of those who didn't hire illegals.

    They'd never be able to undercut the other guy if they paid the same wages, paid for the same benefits.

    As far as produce goes, people will end up buying foreign produced agriculture. They often already do.

    Then you've got to have people willing to do the work in the first place. Personally, having dealt with natural born citizens quite often in construction, I have little confidence in their will to work...

    And I actually paid a very good wage. I ended up hiring legal immigrants more often than anything else.
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    As above, some of this will certainly happen, but only at the margins, as the vast majority of businesses do not employ illegals.
    I actually agree, which is why I believe that there would be no increase in jobs for legal residents by removing illegals.


    Either way, the fact that something might lead to increased prices is not an argument for exempting people from laws, particularly where the people who are profiting from it are those who are breaking the law.
    I agree with this as well.

    My argument against federal immigration laws (both restrictive AND permissive federal laws) is that it is an individual State's right to determine who is or is not a legal resident of that state. The federal government only has the right to universalize naturalization laws, not residency laws.

    I have no argument against State-level immigration laws. I believe that Arizona should have the right to pass even more restrictive immigration statutes than those it has already passed if they so choose.
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Whatever. I pay the local Mennonites to pick my strawberries for me. And their prices are comparable to the grocery store's prices. Difference is, the produce is better, fresher, and lacking the toxins that other places use.

    Anywho, I don't see how sending all the illegal strawberry pickers back home is going to affect much of the costs. Apparently, the local folks can do it just as cheap.

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Then I guess our experiences shall have to differ. I can not imagine that every, single, solitary, construction job for every single country over the entire united states...to a singularity...are all going to vanish and cease to exist if there were no illegal immigrant workers. Which is what you're arguing. Actually, you're not even arguing that. Any illegal immigrant working in fast food...that job won't get filled, even if its at a 5:1 ratio. Any illegal immigrant working on a farm? That farm will apparently not hire anyone new, or will just close down. I can think of half a dozen bars immedietely in a few mile radious around my house whose barbacks are most likely illegal immigrants...you're suggseting that every one of those bars is going to close up shop, or just stop having barbacks. I've worked for a number of hotels where I've been very curious as to the citizenship of a good portion of the cleaning staff...apparently every one of those hotels are going to shut down, or just stop having cleaners. And on and on.

    Sorry, I understand your experience in construction...and while I can not fathom every single construction compamy in the entire U.S. that hires any illegals all just closing shop...even if we assume that's true that is hardly all the jobs that illegals make up. What you're suggesting is that all sorts of business the entire united states over is going to shut down because of this to have literally "zero impact" on unemployment...that just doesn't make sense.

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    I actually agree, which is why I believe that there would be no increase in jobs for legal residents by removing illegals.
    Unless all of those millions of jobs would go undone, there would absolutely have to be an increase in jobs among legal residents, with an increase in prices that correlates to the wage gap.

    I agree with this as well.

    My argument against federal immigration laws (both restrictive AND permissive federal laws) is that it is an individual State's right to determine who is or is not a legal resident of that state. The federal government only has the right to universalize naturalization laws, not residency laws.

    I have no argument against State-level immigration laws. I believe that Arizona should have the right to pass even more restrictive immigration statutes than those it has already passed if they so choose.
    My argument is not against immigration, it's against the fact that our current laws encourage lawbreaking among immigrants and employers alike. If we as a country believe that the minimum wage should be $7/hr, then every person working in this country should be earning $7/hr+. We should not have a millions-strong underclass that is tolerated because they allow us to save 3 cents on an apple but is denied all the rest of the rights of citizenship. If we want to keep prices low, then let them all become citizens and cut the minimum wage. If we want to cut unemployment at the expense of inflation, then kick them all out. If we want something in the middle, then we should do it, rather than just let our current unworkable situation continue on.

    Right now our society is trying to have its cake and eat it too, and the people who are being hurt by it are the illegals who have no security, the lower class of Americans who are unable to find paying work, and the law-abiding business owners who are losing money to their less scrupulous competitors.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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