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Thread: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    No...what I am saying is that the rationale for WHY we need to deport all undocumented workers is flawed.

    People complain about the brown-skin people coming in and stealing American jobs.

    If this is true....where are all those unemployed workers that wanted those jobs that are no longer being taken by the "illegals"?

    I'll give you a hint....probably still sitting in their underwear on their couch, because they really didn't want the job in the first place.
    So your theory is

    1) that every economist on the planet is wrong when they say that an influx of low-wage labor will drive down wages, and
    2) that that decrease in wages has absolutely no impact on unemployment?

    Think this through: Imagine that strawberries are harvested exclusively by illegal immigrants for $5/hour. Now imagine that all those illegal immigrants leave the country. Are Americans going to be rushing to pick strawberries for $5/hr? Probably not, but that's where your reasoning stops. You ignore the second half of the equation.

    Since there will obviously be a continued demand for strawberries, they have to get picked somehow. If there are no illegal immigrants to pick them for $5/hr, then the people who own the plantations will have to increase the salaries to a level that will attract enough workers. Assuming that's something like $10/hr, the end result will be that a number of American workers that would have previously been unemployed will now be earning $10/hr.


    As a side note, the politics of illegal immigration crack me up. I'll never understand how the same people who campaign on behalf of low-income people and argue for increased employment opportunity will then turn around and get furious at a proposal that would reduce unemployment and increase wages among low-income Americans.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 05-17-10 at 02:52 PM.
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    As a side note, the politics of illegal immigration crack me up. I'll never understand how the same people who campaign on behalf of low-income people and argue for increased employment opportunity will then turn around and get furious at a proposal that would reduce unemployment and increase wages among low-income Americans.
    Absolutely baffling, isn't it? Kind of mentality that just makes you want to sit back and study it, like an animal eating its own tail or something. Confusing, lacking any logic or common sense, but you just *have* to sit and stare all the same.

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Absolutely baffling, isn't it? Kind of mentality that just makes you want to sit back and study it, like an animal eating its own tail or something. Confusing, lacking any logic or common sense, but you just *have* to sit and stare all the same.
    And who is illegal immigration even hurting? Not the rich folks out in Cape Cod, as they're getting cheap child- and lawn-care. Not me, as I'm paying .50 cents less per drink and $2 less per meal thanks to the fact that every barback and a majority of restaurant workers in this city are illegal immigrants getting paid under the table. It hurts the people who would otherwise take those jobs, people who are largely low-income, low-education, and minority - all groups that vote Democrat at a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 05-17-10 at 03:04 PM.
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    It hurts the people who would otherwise take those jobs, people who are largely low-income, low-education, and minority - all groups that vote Democrat at a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio.
    Wait, if that's the type of group that's most likely to fill in those kind of jobs then according to Disneydues logic those groups of people, if they're unemployed, are so because:

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    I'll give you a hint....probably still sitting in their underwear on their couch, because they really didn't want the job in the first place.
    So essentially Disney agree's with the stereotypical Republican view that many of those that are poor or unemployed are that way because they do not have the incentive to go out and actually try and get a job?

    I never knew Disney was such a Republican.


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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    So your theory is

    1) that every economist on the planet is wrong when they say that an influx of low-wage labor will drive down wages, and
    2) that that decrease in wages has absolutely no impact on unemployment?

    Think this through: Imagine that strawberries are harvested exclusively by illegal immigrants for $5/hour. Now imagine that all those illegal immigrants leave the country. Are Americans going to be rushing to pick strawberries for $5/hr? Probably not, but that's where your reasoning stops. You ignore the second half of the equation.

    Since there will obviously be a continued demand for strawberries, they have to get picked somehow. If there are no illegal immigrants to pick them for $5/hr, then the people who own the plantations will have to increase the salaries to a level that will attract enough workers. Assuming that's something like $10/hr, the end result will be that a number of American workers that would have previously been unemployed will now be earning $10/hr.


    As a side note, the politics of illegal immigration crack me up. I'll never understand how the same people who campaign on behalf of low-income people and argue for increased employment opportunity will then turn around and get furious at a proposal that would reduce unemployment and increase wages among low-income Americans.

    That's the fallacy of the Capitalist system. Sure...it might work for something like farming where the product is perishable.
    The harsh reality is that most companies are going to pay the lowest wage possible. If it means shipping operations and jobs overseas, so be it, as long as it helps the CEO's bottom line.
    Capitalism works best for the corporation when there are enough hungry people around that will take the job for what the company is willing to pay.

    The fact of the matter is, even in farming...if the company suddenly has to pay $10 an hour for workers, the price of Strawberries is going to double.
    People are not going to pay $7 a pound for strawberries and so demand will go down. The company isn't going to take a loss, they will just cut supply and cut workers...so in the end, you haven't really created more jobs that those brown-skinned people were stealing in the first place.
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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Wait, if that's the type of group that's most likely to fill in those kind of jobs then according to Disneydues logic those groups of people, if they're unemployed, are so because:



    So essentially Disney agree's with the stereotypical Republican view that many of those that are poor or unemployed are that way because they do not have the incentive to go out and actually try and get a job?

    I never knew Disney was such a Republican.

    Don't give yourself that much credit Zyph. THAT has never been a Republican view. Many liberals have the same view.
    I have ALWAYS had a problem with people in this country that want to bilk the system (as I think most liberals/conservatives do as well).

    That's why I don't have a huge issue with undocumented people who come to this country because they want to WORK. I have a bigger problem with documented people in this country that DON'T want to work.

    That is not to say that there aren't legitimate need for public assistance in this country. The Welfare system needs to be overhauled every bit as much as the Immigration system.

    If that makes me more "Republican" than you thought....then so be it...but I don't think that this is a Republican or Democrat ideal.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    The harsh reality is that most companies are going to pay the lowest wage possible. If it means shipping operations and jobs overseas, so be it, as long as it helps the CEO's bottom line.
    Wait, but the only jobs you've given a damn about pointing out this entire time have been those "standing out front of home depot". So...yard work, roofing, and construction is going to get outsourced overseas? It'll be interesting to watch the Chinese figure out a way to put roofs on American houses from across the ocean.

    Can you point to me where anyones suggested or stated that somehow its going to be a 1:1 ratio in regards to "illegal loses job" to "legal person gains job"?

    If anything minimum wage laws make this almost 100% likelihood of not happening as for many of those jobs it won't even be legally possible to pay what they were paying, therefore costing them more, therefore meaning they can't hire as many people. However every legal person they hire is one more than there was employed by them prior to them no longer having illegal labor.

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Woah woah woah, if we're going to turn this into an economic discussion, let's get some things straight. The illegal label makes them get lower wages. Why? Employers take more risk by hiring an illegal. Because they cannot get into this country legally, they are forced to take lower wages (this is all assuming a situation without minimum wage).

    Secondly, you say that immigration has an impact on unemployment. Sure, in the short-term. Meanwhile, all of your products are cheaper because of more competition in the labor market. Have we forgotten that production creates its own demand? The illegals that are working are also buying. You do know that creates jobs, right?

    So immigrants drive down costs, they have no impact on unemployment in the long run. Why do we cap immigration then? Because of unfounded fears based on outdated economic models.

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    So you're arguing that adding 6+ million people (assuming a low number 12 million illegals, and assuming half of them work which is likely low) to the work force has absolutely 0 impact on unemployment of legal citizens? Based on....?

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    Re: Los Angeles to boycott Arizona over immigration law

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And who is illegal immigration even hurting? Not the rich folks out in Cape Cod, as they're getting cheap child- and lawn-care. Not me, as I'm paying .50 cents less per drink and $2 less per meal thanks to the fact that every barback and a majority of restaurant workers in this city are illegal immigrants getting paid under the table. It hurts the people who would otherwise take those jobs, people who are largely low-income, low-education, and minority - all groups that vote Democrat at a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio.
    I'm not sure I agree with this. There's indirect consequences. What I'd like to see done is a comparison... benefits vs. detriment.

    For example... benefits of an illegal immigrant of x% who work in the U.S. illegally is that:


    If illegal workers were all banished --- what would the costs be short term for things like landscaping, migrant vegetable workers and impacts to groceries / food, etc... vs. the existing cost on the geneal population, government and taxpayer to keep illegals, their family and children here in this country. What are the costs of education, health care, dentistry, government programs, housing, etc.

    I'm sure it may still be beneficial to have illegals here working - if it weren't then government would have been turning a blind eye to it for all these decades but we're talking about government --- not people. Government doesn't care about people's money... the people do. So if the people finally say "enough" - it's now up to the government to tell us why keeping a slave class of people here in this country is so beneficial.

    Short term, removing all illegals may cause landscaping to rise to $350 a lawn cut, or apples to $10 per lb. Long term? Dunno.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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