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Thread: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

  1. #101
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    Re: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Thanks to the current administration, we live in an era where the supposed fact checkers are also biased.


    j-mac
    It didn't start with Obama pal. This ****'s been going down for quite some time now.

    But this is what we're talking about. The hyperpartisanship is making us stupid. We need to stop.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    There was hardly anything elitist in that rant. I mean, if you have something actual to add; go ahead. But stupid little comments without logic to back up the claim are just that; stupid little comments. And stupid little comments do very little for advancing the debate or considering the direction. So if you have more stupid little comments, please feel free to keep them to yourselves. If you have something thought out which pertains to the subject matter at hand, then by all means contribute.
    It was an entirely elitist rant. It was smug too, but that's almost beside the point.

    What I'm getting is this: because of the new freedom of information, and because news companies are competing with each other (in the free market) people are freely choosing to get information through sources some people don't like, and freely choosing to, as you said, not read books about the fed or finance economy, society is going down the toilet. Key words: freely choosing. In the old days, the choices weren't available, because the media was an entirely elite-run industry, and all information came through the filter of the elite. Now the realm of ideas is truly a free market, and it irks people who don't care for the free market in the first place - but it's not just them. It also irks smug people who see that their ideology is not popular even in the free market of ideas, and end up blaming stupidity and ignorance. In this sense it's easy to see how libertarians end up espousing elitist ideas, but the contradiction is still there. Those intensely arguing for a free market in the economy are bemoaning the free market of ideas.

    Have you ever thought for just one moment that if people stopped watching Hannity and reading Coulter, and started reading the books you wanted them to read, maybe they'd still have the same ideologies and vote for the same people and not much would change? Of course not - your ideology is unpopular, and therefore it must be those damn pundits and distractions that make people stupid and ignorant (i.e. disagree with you). Ironically, in today's climate of the availability of information, fact-checking has become more possible and easy than ever. In fact, from a libertarian perspective (and this is my view), the new media and availability of information is one of the greatest things to ever happen to the human race. Disinformation has become a hundredfold harder to spread than ever - because while it has always been there, even when the elite controlled information, it is now possible to discredit it. If you believe in the free market, then you'd believe in the eventual triumph of obvious truths over obvious lies, because both are available to spread now and people get to freely choose which to believe. Only elitists, and some very confused smug people whose ideology is unpopular, would see something wrong with that, and fear that people are too stupid to make that distinction. Never mind that if this is true, it is true with every free market, including the economic one.

  3. #103
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    Re: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    It's all hopeless and we're doomed.

    I didn't say that, but if that is what you choose to believe then who am I to alter your decisions?


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I didn't say that, but if that is what you choose to believe then who am I to alter your decisions?

    j-mac
    Well, maybe we'll be saved if we get a Republican president again. That will make people smarter.

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    Re: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It didn't start with Obama pal. This ****'s been going down for quite some time now.

    But this is what we're talking about. The hyperpartisanship is making us stupid. We need to stop.

    I know that Obama's administration didn't "start" it, but they sure ramped it up. Hyper-partisanship is something that will always be present, what we need to focus on is why things like journalism slid from reporting facts, and investigating without bias changed to agenda reporting.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Well, maybe we'll be saved if we get a Republican president again. That will make people smarter.

    didn't say that either. but I can see that demonization is what you seem to be turning this into.


    j-mac
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    It's funny how the centrists, libertarians, and moderates seem to grok this, but the hardcore conservative koolaid drinkers have their panties in a wad.
    Most of them are hypocrites who blamed Obama's win on American stupidity. I'm consistently against smugness and elitism of all types, at least.


    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Maybe this is why...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/religi...-founders.html

    Note the lack of objectivity, the need to reinforce paradigms over honest seeking of historical information, and the inability to screen for source bias.

    Libertarians, at least, have learned to think for themselves to some degree. All too many partisans are spoon-fed their opinions, and form their judgements on the basis of what the partisan hacks say.
    If it weren't for new technology, we would all be spoon fed our opinions. Now we an choose where to get information from - and believe it or not, if Beck didn't exist, basically nobody's political ideology would be different. If some people choose to listen to Beck or Olbermann, so be it. That's their choice, and I see nothing wrong with it, because I'm not smug enough to believe that everyone would agree with me if it weren't for "propaganda" that some freely choose to listen to.

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    Re: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    What I'm getting is this: because of the new freedom of information, and because news companies are competing with each other (in the free market) people are freely choosing to get information through sources some people don't like, and freely choosing to, as you said, not read books about the fed or finance economy, society is going down the toilet. Key words: freely choosing. In the old days, the choices weren't available, because the media was an entirely elite-run industry, and all information came through the filter of the elite. Now the realm of ideas is truly a free market, and it irks people who don't care for the free market in the first place - but it's not just them. It also irks smug people who see that their ideology is not popular even in the free market of ideas, and end up blaming stupidity and ignorance. In this sense it's easy to see how libertarians end up espousing elitist ideas, but the contradiction is still there. Those intensely arguing for a free market in the economy are bemoaning the free market of ideas.
    Nobody is arguing against the free market of ideas. What is being suggested here is that we aren't keeping up with providing our kids and ourselves with the tools to NAVIGATE that free market of ideas.

    Tools that help to identify the bias of a particular source. Tools that help users of information sort through the variety that is out there and figure out what information is true, and what is false.

    There is a difference between, for instance, a book promoted on the Glenn Beck show that FALSIFIES QUOTES from the founding fathers to justify theocracy, and scholarship that has been peer-reviewed and held up to academic scrutiny.

    You get that, right? I don't have a team in the game here. I'm saying that there are problems with this issue on BOTH SIDES. There are people here who take their talking points straight from Democratic Underground and fall into "bush-hitler mode" with the slightest provocation, and without making any sense at all. And similarly, there are the red state koolaid drinkers who think that if Glenn Beck says it on the television, it must be factually correct.

    The fact is that both sides present the "facts" with their own spin. It's hard to find factual information on many topics. Climate change is a good one, for instance. Whose numbers do you use?
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 05-10-10 at 12:22 PM.

  9. #109
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    Re: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    It was an entirely elitist rant. It was smug too, but that's almost beside the point.

    What I'm getting is this: because of the new freedom of information, and because news companies are competing with each other (in the free market) people are freely choosing to get information through sources some people don't like, and freely choosing to, as you said, not read books about the fed or finance economy, society is going down the toilet. Key words: freely choosing. In the old days, the choices weren't available, because the media was an entirely elite-run industry, and all information came through the filter of the elite. Now the realm of ideas is truly a free market, and it irks people who don't care for the free market in the first place - but it's not just them. It also irks smug people who see that their ideology is not popular even in the free market of ideas, and end up blaming stupidity and ignorance. In this sense it's easy to see how libertarians end up espousing elitist ideas, but the contradiction is still there. Those intensely arguing for a free market in the economy are bemoaning the free market of ideas.

    Have you ever thought for just one moment that if people stopped watching Hannity and reading Coulter, and started reading the books you wanted them to read, maybe they'd still have the same ideologies and vote for the same people and not much would change? Of course not - your ideology is unpopular, and therefore it must be those damn pundits and distractions that make people stupid and ignorant (i.e. disagree with you). Ironically, in today's climate of the availability of information, fact-checking has become more possible and easy than ever. In fact, from a libertarian perspective (and this is my view), the new media and availability of information is one of the greatest things to ever happen to the human race. Disinformation has become a hundredfold harder to spread than ever - because while it has always been there, even when the elite controlled information, it is now possible to discredit it. If you believe in the free market, then you'd believe in the eventual triumph of obvious truths over obvious lies, because both are available to spread now and people get to freely choose which to believe. Only elitists, and some very confused smug people whose ideology is unpopular, would see something wrong with that, and fear that people are too stupid to make that distinction. Never mind that if this is true, it is true with every free market, including the economic one.
    What a pile of horse**** this is. Talk about smug and condescending. Damn man, I hope you didn't break your glass house trying to throw stones at me on this one.

    Disinformation is very easy to spread when you hide it in emotionalized rhetoric and nationalism. People can choose whatever they want, but I told you exactly what needs to happen if your goal is to preserve the Republic. Only a fool would suggest that giving one's self up to the misinformation out there, to allow one to be pulled and pushed along the tides of hyperpartisan "news" would be a good thing. It's not a good thing.

    I don't expect that everyone has the same political opinion as I do. In fact, it would be a little bothersome, I couldn't rant if everyone agreed with me. However, there is a difference in saying that people can have a different opinion and having an opinion based almost entirely off of hyperbole, spin, emotionalized rhetoric, and hyperpartisan hackery. If people read books and educated themselves and had a different opinion than me, fine. So long as it's an educated, researched opinion, I feel well better than that. It's when these opinions are born of ignorance that I start to worry. Smart people disagreeing is one thing. Misinformed people running on emotional knee jerk reactions are completely different.

    So my condescending friend, it seems as if you had it all wrong. Maybe you were just making an emotional lashing out because you read something you didn't agree with. But just remember, when you're chucking stones; beware of your own glass house.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  10. #110
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    Re: Obama bemoans 'diversions' of IPod, Xbox era

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    If it weren't for new technology, we would all be spoon fed our opinions. Now we an choose where to get information from - and believe it or not, if Beck didn't exist, basically nobody's political ideology would be different. If some people choose to listen to Beck or Olbermann, so be it. That's their choice, and I see nothing wrong with it, because I'm not smug enough to believe that everyone would agree with me if it weren't for "propaganda" that some freely choose to listen to.
    Do you ever encounter leftist posters on here who have absorbed their opinions wholesale from the Daily Kos and/or Democratic Underground? Or rightist posters on here who regularly cite the Free Republic without any corroborating evidence?

    That's what we're talking about here.

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