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Pentagon asking Congress to hold back on generous increases in troop pay

The numbers aren't the point. The point is that people serve their country in a number of different ways, and I don't think it's fair to give soldiers more than others who are doing even more high risk jobs but with less acknowledgment.

Again, the problem with this argument is that it makes a false assumption. You are assuming that the rate of combat deaths is less than those of people in the jobs you list. This is not necessarily true. There are more deaths in those jobs, but there are also many many more people doing those jobs.

The next problem with this argument is that fisherman and truck drivers are not "serving their country", and more than any one privately employed is. Military personnel are directly serving their country.

The last problem is that it does not account for the hardships and extra hours that military personal go through. Spend a few months with your bags packed because you could be deploy with 48 hours notice. Makes even taking a vacation hard. Over the last 4 years I spent in service, I spent less than 4 months each year actually at my home base. I spent almost 2 years of it at sea. Further, military personal work more hours than most comparable civilians, and do not get overtime for it. If you broke down military pay to an hourly rate, you would be aghast. 84 + hour weeks, plus duty days every 4 days is the norm. During flight ops at sea, I worked 16 to 18 hours a day, for 30 to 40 days at a stretch with no days off, doing a high stress job where one mistake could cost some one their life.

I have a better question. Why should the tax payers be expected to dish out more money for useless wars? The U.S. should never have gone to Iraq. I know what's done is done and we have to look forward, but if the military is having financial issues then the choices of the U.S. government are to blame. If the military has a budget crisis, even with half a trillion dollars per year or more, then maybe overseas campaigns should be reduced?

Separate question. I agree, Iraq was a mistake. I agree, the constant deployments is expensive. Iraq is thankfully winding down, Afghanistan is unfortunately to my mind necessary. If Pakistan is involved in terror attacks against the US, we may have to do something there. The problem is that we don't have absolute control. Certain situations do require a response in the best interest of our country.

On the subject of welfare, fiscal conservatives always talk about conservation. Why are the same principles never applied to the military? It too can be a financial black hole if its function is not being used wisely.

I am not a conservative, I will let them answer this question. I will note quickly that I am a liberal, and yet I see the need for military spending, and a strong military. We should not play politics with the military, though I do agree, as I posted earlier, that the military budget does need to be trimmed. It's just not going to be easy.
 
From a purely economic point of view the only reason to increase the pay of the military members would be if they could not retain or recruit enough to fill the positions.

If they are having trouble recruiting or retaining then they need to increase wages, up untill the point that they are not short of personal.

No different then what goes on in the private sector. Especially as it is a voluntary force, you know how much the money is before going in
 
Again, the problem with this argument is that it makes a false assumption. You are assuming that the rate of combat deaths is less than those of people in the jobs you list. This is not necessarily true. There are more deaths in those jobs, but there are also many many more people doing those jobs.

You're splitting hairs. I'm sure we could divert this debate to a numbers game, if that's what you want, but it side steps my point which was already stated. There are other kinds of high risk jobs that serve the country that are non-military, and I don't see why they are any less deserving of patriotism than the military.

The next problem with this argument is that fisherman and truck drivers are not "serving their country", and more than any one privately employed is. Military personnel are directly serving their country.

Without coal miners, your country has no energy for economy.

Without lumber, infrastructure does not get built.

Without pilots testing new planes, aviation falls behind.

Without farmers, there is no food.

Without truck drivers, supplies don't get distributed throughout the country.

I think they serve their country directly. Just because a soldier is on the public budget, does not mean they are in a special class of employment that deserves as much as money as we can give them. Soldiers have contracts and terms, just like the private sector. They deserve more money than most of the private sector because their lives are directly threatened routinely, but so are the others in the top 10 I posted.

The last problem is that it does not account for the hardships and extra hours that military personal go through. Spend a few months with your bags packed because you could be deploy with 48 hours notice. Makes even taking a vacation hard. Over the last 4 years I spent in service, I spent less than 4 months each year actually at my home base. I spent almost 2 years of it at sea. Further, military personal work more hours than most comparable civilians, and do not get overtime for it. If you broke down military pay to an hourly rate, you would be aghast. 84 + hour weeks, plus duty days every 4 days is the norm. During flight ops at sea, I worked 16 to 18 hours a day, for 30 to 40 days at a stretch with no days off, doing a high stress job where one mistake could cost some one their life.

As I said earlier, I'm not against fair pay increases to the military from an economics standpoint; but I am completely against unsubstantiated pay raises based upon the notion that soldiers are somehow more deserving because they are in a favored employment strata. i.e. they can't be paid enough for the duty they perform.

Separate question. I agree, Iraq was a mistake. I agree, the constant deployments is expensive. Iraq is thankfully winding down, Afghanistan is unfortunately to my mind necessary. If Pakistan is involved in terror attacks against the US, we may have to do something there. The problem is that we don't have absolute control. Certain situations do require a response in the best interest of our country.

Ideally there should be no war at all, but yes, I am a realist and I acknowledge that Afghanistan is necessary; that said, for all we know, things could be wrapping up there now if the waste that was Iraq hadn't been pandered to. This, to me, constitutes a large waste of money. The pentagon could be in a better position to give raises because the budget would be more balanced. That's what happens when long-term sustainability is sacrificed for the sake of the short term image of certain politicians.

Naturally the pentagon will be asking for more money now because its resources are being stretched. That's what happens when you fight multiple long term wars. The coffers begin to run dry.

I am not a conservative, I will let them answer this question. I will note quickly that I am a liberal, and yet I see the need for military spending, and a strong military. We should not play politics with the military, though I do agree, as I posted earlier, that the military budget does need to be trimmed. It's just not going to be easy.

The U.S. needs a strong military because of its current foreign policy, but the choices of some foolish administrations have led it to budgetary crisis. That's what happens when one has a short term vision.

People always play politics with the military. It's a branch of the gov. and subject to scrutiny just like any other branch. Its budget does need to be trimmed, but in realistic proportions according to maintaining foreign commitments. Your government can conserve the most by not engaging in unnecessary wars, as we saw with Iraq.
 
Military families until recently frequently depended on food stamps to get by. Considering the job they do, and the risk involved, and the hours a day/week/year put into that job, and the amount of travel and disruption to family and life, no, they really do not make enough.

my family rated them in 2007 - 2008. however, we didn't take them because we didn't need them; lots of junior enlisted members who aren't making much money also aren't spending it particularly wisely.


which is perhaps neither here nor there. generally, i just find it odd that in the middle of a vast expansion of all forms of governance when we are throwing hundreds of billions at vapid and wasteful experiments in the power of demagoguery to override economics, the one department of government that we are demanding tighten it's belt is the one currently engaged in two wars and who's employees are already making less than the rest of the federal workforce.

Average Federal Salary for 2010: $75,419

I'm thinking maybe there are some other folks somewhere who could take pay cuts ahead of that young E-3 with a brand new wife and baby.
 
The numbers aren't the point. The point is that people serve their country in a number of different ways, and I don't think it's fair to give soldiers more than others who are doing even more high risk jobs but with less acknowledgment.

They're in a job where they don't get to decide where they live, what job they do, what shifts they work, how much risk they have to take, and they can't quit when they don't feel like doing it anymore.

Why should the tax payers be expected to dish out more money for useless wars? The U.S. should never have gone to Iraq. I know what's done is done and we have to look forward, but if the military is having financial issues then the choices of the U.S. government are to blame. If the military has a budget crisis, even with half a trillion dollars per year or more, then maybe overseas campaigns should be reduced?

On the subject of welfare, fiscal conservatives always talk about conservation. Why are the same principles never applied to the military? It too can be a financial black hole if its function is not being used wisely.

I entirely agree.

That's an argument to take up with congress, not with the enlisted men and women who have absolutely no say whatsoever in the useless wars they're ordered to fight.
 
The numbers aren't the point. The point is that people serve their country in a number of different ways, and I don't think it's fair to give soldiers more than others who are doing even more high risk jobs but with less acknowledgment.

I have a better question. Why should the tax payers be expected to dish out more money for useless wars? The U.S. should never have gone to Iraq. I know what's done is done and we have to look forward, but if the military is having financial issues then the choices of the U.S. government are to blame. If the military has a budget crisis, even with half a trillion dollars per year or more, then maybe overseas campaigns should be reduced?

On the subject of welfare, fiscal conservatives always talk about conservation. Why are the same principles never applied to the military? It too can be a financial black hole if its function is not being used wisely.

Because a strong military is required to keep our country operating freely. Welfare only draws from the system with negative return. The military is an investment; welfare isn't.
 
my family rated them in 2007 - 2008. however, we didn't take them because we didn't need them; lots of junior enlisted members who aren't making much money also aren't spending it particularly wisely.


which is perhaps neither here nor there. generally, i just find it odd that in the middle of a vast expansion of all forms of governance when we are throwing hundreds of billions at vapid and wasteful experiments in the power of demagoguery to override economics, the one department of government that we are demanding tighten it's belt is the one currently engaged in two wars and who's employees are already making less than the rest of the federal workforce.

Average Federal Salary for 2010: $75,419

I'm thinking maybe there are some other folks somewhere who could take pay cuts ahead of that young E-3 with a brand new wife and baby.

And if those E-3's feel they are underpaid they are able to (once their elistment term is up can leave the military to find employement that pays better. Just like anyone else in the US correct. Just because they may have decided to get married and have kids does not mean they should get more money (I am channeling someone here)
 
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my family rated them in 2007 - 2008. however, we didn't take them because we didn't need them; lots of junior enlisted members who aren't making much money also aren't spending it particularly wisely.


which is perhaps neither here nor there. generally, i just find it odd that in the middle of a vast expansion of all forms of governance when we are throwing hundreds of billions at vapid and wasteful experiments in the power of demagoguery to override economics, the one department of government that we are demanding tighten it's belt is the one currently engaged in two wars and who's employees are already making less than the rest of the federal workforce.

Average Federal Salary for 2010: $75,419

I'm thinking maybe there are some other folks somewhere who could take pay cuts ahead of that young E-3 with a brand new wife and baby.

They chose that job and the rate of pay when they joined.
No one made them.

I've got 2 kids and have been at my job for 3 years.
I'm not crying that I get paid less than that E-3, I'm doing something about it.
 
That's not always true.

There was no real value added investment with the war in Vietnam.

It's a matter of opinion about which war is productive and which one isn't, but the fact that a strong military, that no one in the world has the balls to take on, is a wise investment.

Most of the money that is spent on the military is spent to support our service members. It buys them food, clothing, bennies, housing and equipment. All these things combined give our soldiers a greater edge on the battlefield to not only defeat the enemy, but to stay alive.
 
And if those E-3's feel they are underpaid they are able to (once their elistment term is up can leave the military to find employement that pays better. Just like anyone else in the US correct. Just because they may have decided to get married and have kids does not mean they should get more money (I am channeling someone here)

When they all bail, where will we be?

Imagine you run a company. You want the best employees you can find and you want to keep turn over to a minimum, because turn over costs money. Do you pay them substandard wages? Probably not, huh?

If you do pay them substandard wages and they find out they can make more money, working somewhere els; they're going to leave. If you lose all your employees and can't find more, you're going to go out of business. We can't really afford for the United States military to go out of business, unless those who oppose pay raises support conscription.
 
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It's a matter of opinion about which war is productive and which one isn't, but the fact that a strong military, that no one in the world has the balls to take on, is a wise investment.

Most of the money that is spent on the military is spent to support our service members. It buys them food, clothing, bennies, housing and equipment. All these things combined give our soldiers a greater edge on the battlefield to not only defeat the enemy, but to stay alive.

If it is debatable then it isn't necessarily a good thing.

Yea I know that it buys them all those things, they agree to those original salaries.
Why should they be special from everyone else and get higher than average wage increases, when the rest of the people in the U.S. who do in demand, value add things that the whole country can benefit from?

Military is necessary but they aren't necessarily special, most productive people in this country are adding a benefit to all the lives of all citizens.
 
And if those E-3's feel they are underpaid they are able to (once their elistment term is up can leave the military to find employement that pays better. Just like anyone else in the US correct. Just because they may have decided to get married and have kids does not mean they should get more money (I am channeling someone here)

They chose that job and the rate of pay when they joined.
No one made them.

I've got 2 kids and have been at my job for 3 years.
I'm not crying that I get paid less than that E-3, I'm doing something about it.


i think you guys misunderstood me. I'm not saying that the military is oh-so-woefully underpaid etc; i'm suggesting that if we're going to start slashing federal spending and salaries, there are a lot of positions who should be ahead of them in line to get cuts. i find that the Defense Department alone being told to do this is wrong, not the notion of it happening at all.
 
If it is debatable then it isn't necessarily a good thing.

Yea I know that it buys them all those things, they agree to those original salaries.
Why should they be special from everyone else and get higher than average wage increases, when the rest of the people in the U.S. who do in demand, value add things that the whole country can benefit from?




Because they pay a high price to protect your freedom to get on here and tell them to sit back, shut-up and suck on it. That's why.

Military is necessary but they aren't necessarily special, most productive people in this country are adding a benefit to all the lives of all citizens.

There's where you couldn't be more wrong. Without our military protecting our freedoms, we would be subject to untold numbers of threats that would damage our economy. Compare the economies of countries without strong militaries to the economies of country who do have strong militaries and see what you get.
 
When they all bail, where will we be?

Imagine you run a company. You want the best employees you can find and you want to keep turn over to a minimum, because turn over costs money. Do you pay them substandard wages? Probably not, huh?

If you do pay them substandard wages and they find out they can make more money, working somewhere els; they're going to leave. If you lose all your employees and can't find more, you're going to go out of business. We can't really afford for the United States military to go out of business, unless those who oppose pay raises support conscription.

perhaps we should pay as low a wage as possible to hire the least talented possible and then be astonished when our foreign policy is negatively effected? you know who you can always hire for crappy wages? trailor trash like Spc England.
 
perhaps we should pay as low a wage as possible to hire the least talented possible and then be astonished when our foreign policy is negatively effected? you know who you can always hire for crappy wages? trailor trash like Spc England.


You said a mouth full, brother.

People bitch about military pay-raises, then are freaked out when some substandard soldier commits a war crime. They just can't put two-and-two together.
 
i think you guys misunderstood me. I'm not saying that the military is oh-so-woefully underpaid etc; i'm suggesting that if we're going to start slashing federal spending and salaries, there are a lot of positions who should be ahead of them in line to get cuts. i find that the Defense Department alone being told to do this is wrong, not the notion of it happening at all.

You miss the point. The DoD isn't being "told" to do it. The Pentagon is telling Congress to stop sending over inflated budgets.

The articles I've read about this are quite different from the OP.

I've linked to an example and I see absolutely NOTHING to complain about what Gates is trying to do.

The DoD is one of the MOST wasteful departments of our government. It's a MASSIVE bureaucracy and it's needs trimming. It's not the only department with waste; but since it's the biggest departments it's automatically one of the most wasteful.
 
Because they pay a high price to protect your freedom to get on here and tell them to sit back, shut-up and suck on it. That's why.

See this is when you guys go all stupid.
The vast majority did not do such a thing.

There's where you couldn't be more wrong. Without our military protecting our freedoms, we would be subject to untold numbers of threats that would damage our economy. Compare the economies of countries without strong militaries to the economies of country who do have strong militaries and see what you get.

Without farmers you wouldn't have food.
Without construction workers you wouldn't have a home.

I could go on but I think my point is being made here.

The Swiss are doing quite well, no need for a super sized military.
 
See this is when you guys go all stupid.
The vast majority did not do such a thing.



Without farmers you wouldn't have food.
Without construction workers you wouldn't have a home.

I could go on but I think my point is being made here.

The Swiss are doing quite well, no need for a super sized military.

Also, Costa Rica eliminated its military and is now the best educated and healthiest nation in Central America. Iceland has no standing military.

Now, I'm not saying we need to eliminate the military nor should we cut the pay of soldiers.

But we've let our military become way too much a part of our economy and our budget. Can anyone tell me why we still need thousands stationed in Germany? Who are we protecting from whom? I know Russia's still a problematic nation, but I'd say that the odds of them invading Europe again are pretty slim. Why didn't we listen to Eisenhower? Why, in fact, did we basically do everything he warned us not to do?

I'm not anti-military; I'm anti-wasteful military spending.
 
Also, Costa Rica eliminated its military and is now the best educated and healthiest nation in Central America. Iceland has no standing military.

Now, I'm not saying we need to eliminate the military nor should we cut the pay of soldiers.

But we've let our military become way too much a part of our economy and our budget. Can anyone tell me why we still need thousands stationed in Germany? Who are we protecting from whom? I know Russia's still a problematic nation, but I'd say that the odds of them invading Europe again are pretty slim. Why didn't we listen to Eisenhower? Why, in fact, did we basically do everything he warned us not to do?

I'm not anti-military; I'm anti-wasteful military spending.

All good points.

I'm not anti-military either but I am anti hero worship.
I believe military expansion is being used as a guise for full employment.
 
See this is when you guys go all stupid.
The vast majority did not do such a thing.

That's exactly what you meant when you said:

Yea I know that it buys them all those things, they agree to those original salaries.

Why should they be special from everyone else and get higher than average wage increases, when the rest of the people in the U.S. who do in demand, value add things that the whole country can benefit from?

Which means, you agreed to it, so sit back, shut-up and suck on it


Without farmers you wouldn't have food.

Farmers get big ass subsidies, too.



The Swiss are doing quite well, no need for a super sized military.


The Swiss have a very strong military. In fact, every male citizen in Swizterland is a member of the armed forces. Wanna pick another country?
 
Which means, you agreed to it, so sit back, shut-up and suck on it

So you can't defend your argument?
What are you going to do next, wrap yourself in an American flag and play some Lee Greenwood?


Farmers get big ass subsidies, too.

Didn't say that was right.
At the same time, most small farmers don't get this huge amount of praise for providing one of the requirements of life.
Most don't get those big ass subsidies.

The Swiss have a very strong military. In fact, every male citizen in Swizterland is a member of the armed forces. Wanna pick another country?

Except the do that for defense and don't spend ridiculous sums of money fighting overseas wars.
 
Which means, you agreed to it, so sit back, shut-up and suck on it

Moderator's Warning:
Knock off the personal attacks.
 
Because a strong military is required to keep our country operating freely. Welfare only draws from the system with negative return. The military is an investment; welfare isn't.

The military is only an investment for the private sector that develops weapons. Tax payers don't see returns on military capital during the war. It's just a black hole of money that keeps getting used up, or haven't you been paying attention to the war spending acts in congress?

Throwing money and lives away: that's what congress is good at.
 
I find it interesting that folks who support pay raises for the military are the same folks who do not support pay raises for teachers. In as much as our servicemen and women do jobs that protect our country, teachers do jobs that support our children. Both of these jobs are about as important as they come.

And, for the record, I support pay raises for both professions.
 
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