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Thread: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

  1. #131
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    Re: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Sure about that? No car means you have to find another means to work, not every city has transportation, no restaurants/stores/farmers/meat producers means you must gather your own food, without them most Americans would probably starve.
    A farmer, harvester, producer, packager at a plant =/= Restaurant chef or wait staff. At first you specifically said "restaurant" which for many is an extreme luxury they don't "need" - There's a huge difference. Between the Supply-chain and the luxury-chain.

    Insurance is a service, so is medical care. If you want the best you have to pay, end of story.
    Yeah - I have no problem with people choosing and then paying for their desired level of insurance they want to have - I simply don't like the pocket-profit that is behind it - including windfalls that come via stocks to holders.

    My view is not the same thing as someone who might say we don't "need" insurance. I do believe we need insurance, and I believe that it can be run balanced and fair.

    Ah, but they are service providers, as are insurers.
    Profit is what you are left over with AFTER you pay your benefit-costs, reimbursements, travel, employees' pay, taxes and fees, licenses, proxy labor, utilities and so on - so forth. Profit is extra for a company to do *whatever they want to* with.

    If insurance is mandatory and they're charging 500 people $100.00 / year for insurance that equals $50,000 a year paid to the insurance company. If, after paying all that extra, an insurance company ends up with a 2% profit ($1,000) that they can do whatever with - why not refund it to the people as 'overpay'
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 06-25-10 at 03:44 PM.
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  2. #132
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    Re: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Just because you have a choice doesn't mean your options are good. I'd rather be forced into one good option than have my choice of dozens of bad ones.

    And most people don't have dozens of options when it comes to healthcare.
    well - so I support the government offering it's own healthcare, I have no problem with that - but I just don't like how they went about doing it.
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  3. #133
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    Re: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Just because you have a choice doesn't mean your options are good. I'd rather be forced into one good option than have my choice of dozens of bad ones.

    And most people don't have dozens of options when it comes to healthcare.
    Some people don't and that is mostly the fault of government mismanagement.

    I understand that there is a contingency of people who have no access, aka those born with lifelong medical conditions.
    That I am fine with giving a type of UHC for, on the other hand medical care costs money.
    There is no such thing as a free lunch and for us to constantly give state hand outs for those who don't take their life, in their hands is stupid and counter productive.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #134
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    Re: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    well - so I support the government offering it's own healthcare, I have no problem with that - but I just don't like how they went about doing it.
    Frankly, neither do I. This healthcare "reform" they've passed is nothing but a bunch of prohibitively expensive mandates that will have no bearing whatsoever on the actual cost of healthcare. It's obscene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    That I am fine with giving a type of UHC for, on the other hand medical care costs money.
    There is no such thing as a free lunch and for us to constantly give state hand outs for those who don't take their life, in their hands is stupid and counter productive.
    You'll get no argument there from me. But if it is more efficient for all of us to pay for healthcare collectively through our taxes than to pay individually out of pocket, then that is what we should do. All of the countries whose citizens are healthier than ours have State-funded universal healthcare plans, and most of them pay less than half per capita of what we spend on our baroque semi-privatized system.

  5. #135
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    Re: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

    Quote Originally Posted by Korimyr the Rat View Post
    Just because you have a choice doesn't mean your options are good. I'd rather be forced into one good option than have my choice of dozens of bad ones.
    It's true that some people are in dire straits when it comes to their options, but I will never accept somebody in Washington deciding my life for me as they are not my parents and certainly not entitled to the honor of being my keeper in this country.

    And most people don't have dozens of options when it comes to healthcare.
    Slight correction, there are always options, though they may not be great or inexpensive. I find that most people aren't willing to put in the work to find those options.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    A farmer, harvester, producer, packager at a plant =/= Restaurant chef or wait staff. At first you specifically said "restaurant" which for many is an extreme luxury they don't "need" - There's a huge difference. Between the Supply-chain and the luxury-chain.
    I specifically mentioned restaurant only because it was the first thing that came to mind. The overall point is that all goods and services are pretty much a choice, nobody seems to mind when other necessities provide a profit so I would expect the same courtesy to be shown to the healthcare commodity.



    Yeah - I have no problem with people choosing and then paying for their desired level of insurance they want to have - I simply don't like the pocket-profit that is behind it - including windfalls that come via stocks to holders.
    There is no health insurance windfall, in fact most if not all health insurers are under the standard profit margin of the accepted average of success. Usually around 5.5-6% versus the norm of 9+
    My view is not the same thing as someone who might say we don't "need" insurance. I do believe we need insurance, and I believe that it can be run balanced and fair.
    There is no such thing as "balanced and fair" in insurance, everyone has a different set of needs in life for things to be equal everyone would have to have the same circumstances.


    Profit is what you are left over with AFTER you pay your benefit-costs, reimbursements, travel, employees' pay, taxes and fees, licenses, proxy labor, utilities and so on - so forth. Profit is extra for a company to do *whatever they want to* with.
    Nope, profit is also accounted to shareholders, some has to be witheld for government mandated responsibilities, etc. So no, there is no "windfall".
    If insurance is mandatory and they're charging 500 people $100.00 / year for insurance that equals $50,000 a year paid to the insurance company. If, after paying all that extra, an insurance company ends up with a 2% profit ($1,000) that they can do whatever with - why not refund it to the people as 'overpay'
    Why the hell would a business keep the doors open for less than acceptable profit. It is their earned money for a service provided.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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    Re: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

    obamacare is the same as romneycare.

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    Re: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

    cbo still says obamacare may reduce the deficit.

  9. #139
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    Re: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Incorrect, the bill reclassified benefits as income, group insurance is not insurance, it is a benefit.
    Ah, but some benefits are indeed part of the insurance package no?

    Except that the messenger in this case is also trying to play advocate and is not qualified.
    How is the 1099 playing advocate?

    The fact is the I.R.S is going to be given more power with this bill when they already have too much, the fact is taxes are going up, and the fact is the 1099 is a part of that.
    Except that the 1099 merely reports what would be income regardless of the 1099's existence. Complaining about the form when it effectively does nothing is rather idiotic.

    Off topic. The fact is that this bill will drastically increase taxes past what people are accustomed to with the current I.R.S. and it's abusive powers.
    Not necessarily. The primarily underlying theme here is anti-tax. The real threat isn't this reclass. If people actually did care about anti-tax and especially about IRS power, you'd be trying to stop individual Fin 48.

    I take it you don't know what Fin 48 is?
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  10. #140
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    Re: Health care law's massive, hidden tax change

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Ah, but some benefits are indeed part of the insurance package no?
    For classification purposes no. Insurance is owned by the contract holder, if you have insurance you own the policy, if you have a group package the employer owns the policy and you have use of it, but it isn't truly insurance as it isn't portable.



    How is the 1099 playing advocate?
    You mentioned shoot the messenger, so I assumed you meant the people advocating for it's inclusion and not the form itself. Still. this is yet another backdoor tax increase and should be immediately excluded.



    Except that the 1099 merely reports what would be income regardless of the 1099's existence. Complaining about the form when it effectively does nothing is rather idiotic.
    Except that it's use is being extended past what is actually within it's scope for the purposes of funding a worthless and unpopular bill.



    Not necessarily. The primarily underlying theme here is anti-tax. The real threat isn't this reclass. If people actually did care about anti-tax and especially about IRS power, you'd be trying to stop individual Fin 48.
    I take it you don't know what Fin 48 is?
    Yes and no. I've never had to use one as it doesn't pertain to my lines, but that is not the point of this thread, the fact is that taxes are going up, they are hidden by using very onerous methods, and the 1099 is all a part of it.
    EDIT- you bet there is an anti-tax theme, since the taxes are being increased for something people don't want and passed by a bunch of idiots with no working knowledge of the industry. People instictively know this whole issue was a power grab with more to follow.
    Last edited by LaMidRighter; 06-26-10 at 03:25 AM. Reason: continuity
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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