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Thread: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

  1. #391
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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    I assume your point with this is that because a "t-shirt with a "picture" of the flag" is exempted from Flag Code
    How you managed to get exempt out of that is beyond me. One is a flag, the other a representative. Nowhere is it close to even being implied.
    Representative of something is just that, a representative. And the code clearly states that fact, representative. You can piece meal, manipulate and juggle all you want to try and make it fit your personal view. Good luck with that.
    You and I don't get to pick and choose what is respectful to the flag, that is up to Congress to decide
    Wrong, Congress did make it illegal to burn the flag, but the court over ruled them. As I mentioned, personally, I find it disgraceful & disrespectful.
    Anyway, again good luck with the fitting.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbeard View Post
    How you managed to get exempt out of that is beyond me. One is a flag, the other a representative. Nowhere is it close to even being implied.
    Representative of something is just that, a representative. And the code clearly states that fact, representative. You can piece meal, manipulate and juggle all you want to try and make it fit your personal view. Good luck with that.
    Admittedly, my earlier post was rife with typos, but you're not even making coherent sense in your reply, Redbeard. What on earth are you talking about?

    If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that it isn't implied anywhere in the Flag Code that an image or representation of a flag is considered to be a flag. But you are, of course, 100% wrong about this. It is not only implied in section 8 d, i and j, which govern flags on apparel, costumes, lapel pins, etc., but it is also stated explicitly in Section 3 that any image of a flag is considered a flag. I am not by any means manipulating the statute, merely reading what it says in plain language. The statute is clear as day, Redbeard, and it is in fact you who is manipulating and juggling to rationalize this idea that images of flags do not fall within the purview of the Flag Code. You're really just talking a bunch of nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbeard View Post
    Wrong, Congress did make it illegal to burn the flag, but the court over ruled them. As I mentioned, personally, I find it disgraceful & disrespectful.
    Anyway, again good luck with the fitting.
    Don't you see that these are two different things? The law that was overturned in Tinker was a law which criminalized the burning of a US flag. The court held that the first amendment prohibited any criminalization of flag burning because flag burning is a type of speech. The court emphatically did not contend that flag burning in protest is somehow respectful (a simple reading of the very quotations you cited from Tinker will tell you that).

    On the other hand, the Flag Code is codification of proper Flag handling etiquette. Violations of Flag Code aren't "illegal" in the sense that they are criminal, but violations of Flag Code are officially disrespectful whether you agree with the reasoning or not. There is no room for personal opinion on the matter, at least with respect to flag t-shirts, which clearly fall under the proscription against wearing flags (or images of flags, which are considered to be flags) as apparel. Flag Code is entirely voluntary, and thus is not a violation of the first amendment. Tinker does not apply to Flag Code whatsoever.

    So, to sum it up, Tinker preserves the first amendment right to be disrespectful to the flag. Flag Code establishes the manner in which the Flag is to be handled respectfully.

    Therefore, flag t-shirts, being a violation of Flag Code, are disrespectful to the flag. Flag t-shirts are just as bad as burning a flag in protest, hanging the flag upside down or using the image of a flag on napkins. None of these things are crimes but all of these things are a violation of flag code.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 05-18-10 at 10:41 AM.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Therefore, flag t-shirts, being a violation of Flag Code, are disrespectful to the flag. Flag t-shirts are just as bad as burning a flag in protest, hanging the flag upside down or using the image of a flag on napkins. None of these things are crimes but all of these things are a violation of flag code.
    No because t-shirts with a flag pattern are not flags. And you may hang the flag upside down as a distress symbol. Do you understand any of what you read?

  4. #394
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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Why are we discussing flag code as if it's some kind of law or something?

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Why are we discussing flag code as if it's some kind of law or something?



    No we are doing it to hide from the actual discussion and topic.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No because t-shirts with a flag pattern are not flags. And you may hang the flag upside down as a distress symbol. Do you understand any of what you read?
    Jallman, it amazes me how you can read the Flag Code closely enough to point that out, yet still be too dense to understand that a "flag pattern" is covered by the Code just as surely as a literal flag.

    Yes, you can hang a flag upside down as a signal of extreme distress, but you normally can't hang a flag upside down, which is obviously what I meant (I have read the Code over again about a dozen times in the over the last couple of days trying to explain it to you, so believe me, I am intimately familiar with its nuances...). But if you were being reasonable you would have understood that I was speaking generally about the act of hanging a flag upside down, rather than stubbornly trying to nitpick everything I say as if that will somehow advance your own bizarre interpretation of Flag Code.
    While we're on the subject, burning a flag in protest is against flag code, but a flag ought to be burned with honor when it has become unfit for use, which is precisely how all flag t-shirts ought to retire.

    Whether it is a flag or a "flag pattern," both are governed equally by flag code. Do you understand anything you read, jallman? You certainly give no evidence of this when you shoot your mouth off.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    No we are doing it to hide from the actual discussion and topic.
    If I'm not discussing the "actual topic" it's because it is such a ridiculous nonissue. As I have said before, I withhold my judgement about the matter without more information. "Of that which we cannot speak, we must remain silent," as the man said. You still haven't answered my earlier question, by the way. Do you actually know anything about this other than what you have read in a news article? Since when are the disciplinary proceedings of high schools relevant to a political debate message board? Frankly, I refuse to indulge in this trumped up Fox news talking point, it is absurd.

    The issue regarding the proper interpretation of the Flag Code's prohibition of flag t-shirts, which concerns every citizen's moral and patriotic duty to the Flag of this great nation is of far more pressing importance.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 05-18-10 at 12:55 PM.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Why are we discussing flag code as if it's some kind of law or something?
    Well, this is just a guess, but perhaps that's because it actually is a law? Violating Flag Code may not be a crime, but it is still very much a law promulgated by the US Congress. USC Chapter 4 Title 1 to be precise.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Well, this is just a guess, but perhaps that's because it is a law? Violating Flag Code may not be a crime, but it is still very much a law promulgated by the US Congress. USC Chapter 4 Title 1 to be precise.
    Uh huh

    On the national level the Federal Flag Code1 provides uniform guidelines for the
    display of and respect shown to the flag. In addition to the Code, Congress has by
    statute designated the national anthem and set out the proper conduct during its
    presentation.2 The Code is designed “for the use of such civilian groups or
    organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one
    or more executive departments” of the federal government.3 Thus, the Flag Code
    does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement
    provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by
    civilians and civilian groups
    .

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by rivrrat View Post
    Uh huh
    It may be voluntary but it is still a law! You don't have to like them, you don't even have to follow them, but those are, in fact, the RULES on how to handle a flag. Voluntary laws are STILL LAWS!

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