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Thread: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

  1. #351
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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    No, I'm not. I don't agree with your draconian interpretation and you aren't going to convince anyone here that having a flag pattern is a breach of the code.
    Ok, let's get one thing straight, it is not my interpretation. What I have posted above is taken directly from United States flag code, verbatim. If you think it is "draconian" then that is your opinion and you entitled to it, but you should be aware that what you think is "draconian" is the official Flag Code as promulgated by Congress, not simply my interpretation of it.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Yes, the bulk of things the flag pattern is on tells me Jall is correct.
    Why? Flag Code is voluntary. The first amendment permits any desecration of the flag, from burning it to wearing it as apparel. But that doesn't make it respectful, just allowed.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Does that help clear things up?
    Not really, considering you took that out of context. Did you happen to read the header of said chapter and following sentence?
    3. Use of flag for advertising purposes; mutilation of flag
    Any person who, within the District of Columbia, in any manner, for exhibition or display, shall place or cause to be placed any word, figure, mark, picture, design, drawing, or any advertisement of any nature upon any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America;
    And continues to a point of where a fine of no more than a $100 can be imposed.
    Your statement was "I have a problem with somebody wearing a flag as apparel."
    It has been pointed out the lad had on a t-shirt with an imprint of the flag. Since there were no writing, advertisement, mutilation or other desecration's, a claim of disrespect is unsustainable.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Ok, let's get one thing straight, it is not my interpretation. What I have posted above is taken directly from United States flag code, verbatim.
    Yes, with your own interpretive spin on the code.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbeard View Post
    Not really, considering you took that out of context. Did you happen to read the header of said chapter and following sentence?
    I am shocked at the level of sophistry to which you guys are willing to descend in order to rationalize the disrespectful action of wearing a US flag as apparel.

    Title 4 Chapter 1 Section 3 covers a lot of ground, but the most pertinent to this discussion is the definition of "flag" which I have quoted here repeatedly. The definition applies to the word "flag" as used "herein" meaning within the Flag Code, not simply within the section. It clearly states that the Flag Code applies to "any flag, standard, colors, ensign, or any picture or representation of either, or of any part or parts of either, made of any substance or represented on any substance, of any size evidently purporting to be either of said flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States of America or a picture or a representation of either, upon which shall be shown the colors, the stars and the stripes, in any number of either thereof, or of any part or parts of either, by which the average person seeing the same without deliberation may believe the same to represent the flag, colors, standard, or ensign of the United States of America."

    Again, this does not apply just to section three but the entirety of the flag code. It boggles my mind how you could, with any intellectual integrity, say that it only applies to "flags flown from a staff" or whatever nonsense you are trying to spin this as. It applies to all flags or pictures of flags, period. This is taken for granted throughout the flag code. Section 8(j) restricts the use of lapel pins and patches, so even without the definition provided in section 3, it is clear that it does not apply only to literal flags meant to be waved from a staff, but to all representations of flags (just like the definition says, funny how that works, huh?).

    Taken in conjunction with section 8(d) and 8(j) it is obvious to anyone who cares to ascertain the plain meaning that this is meant to restrict the use of any representation of a flag on apparel, athletic uniforms or costumes. Furthermore, athletic uniforms and other sort of apparel aren't even supposed to have a flag patch on them at all, unless they are the uniform of a patriotic organization.

    I did not, repeat, not make this up. This is well known.

    See this link for example.

    Perhaps I haven't been doing the best job of explaining it, but I have tried in my poor way to get it across to you guys. I feel after three or four pages of this, that it is you guys who are trying your hardest to avoid understanding the full implications of US Flag code. It makes me sad that your desire to rationalize your disrespectful behavior outstrips your desire to properly preserve the dignity of the US Flag, but I guess that's just human nature. Normally I would just stop trying to persuade you by now, but when you insult the flag it is not just me or my personal interpretation of flag code that you are offending, but the millions of men and women who have fought and died to preserve the freedom that the Flag represents. The Flag Code says that the Flag is a living being and that is not just metaphor, it is a fact. Please, please, treat the flag with the dignity it deserves.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 05-15-10 at 04:45 PM.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I am shocked at the level of sophistry to which you guys are willing to descend in order to rationalize the disrespectful action of wearing a US flag as apparel.
    It's not disrespectful. It is an expression of patriotism.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    It's not disrespectful. It is an expression of patriotism.
    Do you get dizzy from all that ?

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    [quote=Guy Incognito/QUOTE]
    Your quote....
    I have a problem with somebody wearing a flag as apparel. It is obscene and disrespectful to the flag.
    And by Jove I think you got it.....
    but to all representations of flags
    Finally, as the code points out, a "representative" of the flag and not the flag per se.
    The t-shirt's not a flag, but a representation, facsimile, symbol. The wearing of such apparel is neither obscene nor disrespectful.

    Edit: Changed not to nor..........r and t too close together
    Last edited by Redbeard; 05-16-10 at 01:52 AM.

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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    so, in your world, the image of a flag is not a flag
    got it
    If I take a photo of a flag and post it on Facebook, does that make that image a flag?
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    Re: Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

    This Giant red herring of a derailment is irrellevant. THey were not sent home for violating flag code, they were sent home because apparently the American Flag is offensive on a fake mexican holiday.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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