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Students Wearing American Flag Shirts Sent Home

jallman said:
You are correct about one thing: it is clear on the matter. It is clear that wearing a flag pattern is not a breach of the code. :2wave::2wave::2wave:
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Ok, jallman and redbeard, since you both seem to be so certain that Flag Code states so clearly that flag t-shirts are exempted from Flag Code, then please explain why things like lapel pins and patches are clearly governed by the Flag Code (4 USCS § 8(j)), and yet, according to you, these are clearly not flags? Why is it that "it [the flag] should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use?" According to you, these sorts of articles aren't even flags, so they shouldn't even fall under the scope of this law!

Why, if we follow your absurd reasoning to its conclusion, it is outright impossible to violate 4 USCS § 8 (d), the proscription against wearing a flag as apparel, since, by your contorted logic, as soon as you start wearing it as apparel, it is no longer a flag! Why, it's just an image of a flag, you say, a pattern, and flag code doesn't govern images or patterns even if it says repeatedly that it does!

Such nonsense would hardly be worthy of dignifying with an argument against it, were it not for the fact that this sort of disrespect for the flag occurs all the time, usually done innocently by people who don't know any better. But you two ought to be ashamed of yourselves, when confronted with the letter of the law, when having the plain meaning painstakingly explained to you, your response is to rationalize away this obscene behavior.

At least have the guts to admit that you disagree with the Flag Code, instead of deluding yourself into thinking that you two have found some magic new interpretation of it that nobody else has ever understood before, that makes it ok to wear the flag on a t-shirt. Don't you think it's odd that you two are the only people who interpret the flag code in such a way? Get real, guys and cease this pathetic display of denial.
 
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hazlnut said:
Again, you're playing stupid and trying to ignore the bigger picture context.
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Right. Fake mexican holiday, other kids wearing American flags "taunting".... What am I missing.

The American flag, worn as these kids worn it, is not taunting. The actual taunting is taunting. They were sent home because of thier patriotic colors.....



Also -- waving an American Flag does NOT make those doing the waving pure. (see all photos of skinheads and KKK holding flags).
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Do you think you sound intelligent constantly refering to those who fly the fag as nazis and KKK types?


BTW, ignorant one, Most Skinheads, are not racist.



The point it, we know what the boys were up to. YOU know what the boys where up to. Trying to make a statement about being American on a Mexican holiday. Trying to BAIT the other students into a conflict.
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THIS IS AMERICA JACK.... What is wrong with you? Seriously? :lamo this is freaking America, on no day, do we dip our flag to another. WE ARE AMERICANS ON THIS FAKE MEXICAN HOLIDAY....

I can't make it any more simple for you.



Again with KKK/white pride crap. Where is that coming from? I never figured you for that type.
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Where did I bring up being white once? Please stop lying.

and hey bra, this is like the 3rd time you in a veiled way called me a racist. I'll tell you what. Either cut it out, or come down to my basement and see how far you get with that check your mouth keeps writing. :pimpdaddy:
 
Guy Incognito said:
Ok, jallman and redbeard, since you both seem to be so certain that Flag Code states so clearly that flag t-shirts are exempted from Flag Code, then please explain why things like lapel pins and patches are clearly governed by the Flag Code (4 USCS § 8(j)), and yet, according to you, these are clearly not flags?
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See, this is where you are having a fundamental breakdown in your reading comprehension.

A flag patch is clearly a flag as is a lapel pin. They are not patterns, they are not images...they are stand-alone, complete flags that go on UNIFORMS.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Right. Fake mexican holiday, other kids wearing American flags "taunting".... What am I missing.
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Apparently that mocking a holiday celebrated by mexican-Americans for their own reasons is insensitive and could be construed as bigoted.



The American flag, worn as these kids worn it, is not taunting. The actual taunting is taunting. They were sent home because of thier patriotic colors.....
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Do you have some links to back that up, some further reporting on the event that state these kids were not trying to bait the other students into a conflict.






Do you think you sound intelligent constantly refering to those who fly the fag as nazis and KKK types?
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I was referring pictures posted earlier in this thread (or the other flag thread) that show that not everyone waving the flag is necessarily a 'good' person with purely patriotic motives.

Why is it so hard to even admit that?

Do you believe that we should not look at a person's motives simply because it's the American flag he is waving?


BTW, ignorant one, Most Skinheads, are not racist.
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They love blacks and jews and immigrants. Right.

Who is the ignorant one now?






THIS IS AMERICA JACK.... What is wrong with you? Seriously? :lamo this is freaking America, on no day, do we dip our flag to another. WE ARE AMERICANS ON THIS FAKE MEXICAN HOLIDAY....
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See BOLD question above regarding the motives of the flag waver.









Where did I bring up being white once? Please stop lying.
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Your 'go back to where they came from' comments are typical comments among KKK and white pride folks. Like I said, I never took you for one of those, but you've repeated that notion that they should all 'go back to where they came from'....so, I don't know what to make of it.

and hey bra, this is like the 3rd time you in a veiled way called me a racist. I'll tell you what. Either cut it out, or come down to my basement and see how far you get with that check your mouth keeps writing. :pimpdaddy:
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Like I said, I don't know what to make of your comments.

If a person is angry, frustrated, dismayed by how he or his ancestors are/were treated by the United States, waving a U.S. Flag in his face on a holiday he considers important = baiting.

I'd like to see the students with the flag shirts walk onto an Native American reservation durning a special celebration and begin telling them that this is 'fake' holiday and don't forget who's in charge.:roll:
 
hazlnut said:
Apparently that mocking a holiday celebrated by mexican-Americans for their own reasons is insensitive and could be construed as bigoted.
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you do realize, most Mexicans don't celebrate cinco de mayo. In fact, I'd bet you a platnium more non-hispanic folk celebrate it than Mexicans.




[/quote]
Do you have some links to back that up, some further reporting on the event that state these kids were not trying to bait the other students into a conflict.[/quote]

Irrellevant. the reason they were sent home was due to the american flag adorned upon thier clothes....


That in an of itself is not baiting. The onus is on you to prove "baiting"



I was referring pictures posted earlier in this thread (or the other flag thread) that show that not everyone waving the flag is necessarily a 'good' person with purely patriotic motives.
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Whatever bro. You are equating patriotic kids, 2 of wich are half hispanic as white KKK racists. It's dishonest and lacks integrity.



Do you believe that we should not look at a person's motives simply because it's the American flag he is waving?
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I think stating the American flag in and of itself is "baiting" and worthy of being sent home from school is abhorrent.


They love blacks and jews and immigrants. Right.

Who is the ignorant one now?
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You. As a skinhead in my youth, race had no part of my identity. In fact there were several hispanic, and yes black skinheads in my area. There are racist skinheads, anti-racist skinheads, and skinheads that just didn't care about race. In fact much of the Skinhead style can be tracked back to the jamacian rude boy thing in England.


88n7n3z4.jpg


So to answer your question as to who is the "ignorant one now", I think its sufficient to say, that would be YOU


Your 'go back to where they came from' comments are typical comments among KKK and white pride folks. Like I said, I never took you for one of those, but you've repeated that notion that they should all 'go back to where they came from'....so, I don't know what to make of it.
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Really? So am I suggesting they all go back where they came from, or am I suggesting the La Raza chicanos who are all butt hurt over the American flag go back to TJ where they can work at selling gringos cheap tequila and donkey shows?



Like I said, I don't know what to make of your comments.
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No, you are too afraid to say this sort of inflamatory crap where you would have to justify it.



If a person is angry, frustrated, dismayed by how he or his ancestors are/were treated by the United States, waving a U.S. Flag in his face on a holiday he considers important = baiting.
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Wait, what? How did the US treat him and his ancestors on this fake Corona beer mexicamerican holiday?


:lamo


I'd like to see the students with the flag shirts walk onto an Native American reservation durning a special celebration and begin telling them that this is 'fake' holiday and don't forget who's in charge.:roll:
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Now this is a whole different thing. This was a public school. they didn't enter a private society and start in on "USA USA" chants, no, they simply wore the colors of this great nation, that you find so offensive.
 
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UFFZLf62EU&feature=related"]YouTube- Mr. Symarip - Skinhead Moonstomp (live)[/nomedia]


[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48LV6d61m-Q&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Mr. Symarip Skinhead girl[/nomedia]






effin racists. :lamo
 
Navy Pride said:
Left wingers burned flags in 1991 at protests during the Gulf War and prior to invading Iraq.......They even burned a soldier in effigy...........Were you there?
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No, I wasn't there. I was lost in CA.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
I think stating the American flag in and of itself is "baiting" and worthy of being sent home from school is abhorrent.
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And if want to show me where I said that, then you might have valid point.

The rest is going in circles...

You may have "identified" as a skinhead in your youth, and this may have been a lovely bunch of fellas hanging out, shaving each others heads.... however, if you're going to play dumb and pretend the skinhead reference I was making wasn't specifically to the group the majority of people associate with the white pride movement, I mean, what is the point? You're just playing a stupid game.

That's like saying: I wasn't talking about the 'bad' neo-Nazis, I meant the one's who weren't racist at all... you know, those neo-nazis....

No. We don't know.
 
hazlnut said:
And if want to show me where I said that, then you might have valid point.

The rest is going in circles...

You may have "identified" as a skinhead in your youth, and this may have been a lovely bunch of fellas hanging out, shaving each others heads.... however, if you're going to play dumb and pretend the skinhead reference I was making wasn't specifically to the group the majority of people associate with the white pride movement, I mean, what is the point? You're just playing a stupid game.

That's like saying: I wasn't talking about the 'bad' neo-Nazis, I meant the one's who weren't racist at all... you know, those neo-nazis....

No. We don't know.
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Actually, the only "Stupid" game here is the one your playing. Acting all outraged infering that I am a racist because I think these particular mexicans are a bunch of anti-american idiots who don't even know thier own holidays.

The "stupid" comes out of your arguments where you cackle on and on about anyone daring to critisize the chicanos as "racist"


The "Stupid" comes from you declaring the American flag offensive....


There is plenty of "stupid" here, but you've used up all this threads allotment on stupid posts. :shrug:
 
Guy Incognito said:
Ok, jallman and redbeard, since you both seem to be so certain that Flag Code states so clearly that flag t-shirts are exempted from Flag Code
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Please point, direct, copy and/or paste where such an statement of exemption was made?
United States Code Title 4 Chapter 1 Section 8 (d), which states that flags must never be worn as apparel?
I have a problem with somebody wearing a flag as apparel. It is obscene and disrespectful to the flag
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You made statement said t-shirt was a flag. Has been pointed out, not to be a flag, but an representative, image, symbol, imprint, copy, etc.
A revision of your statement to “I have a problem with somebody wearing an image of the flag as apparel.” as an alternative. And "It is obscene and disrespectful to the flag, IMO". Trying to circumvent the code to fit your personal views, usually turns out to be a poor fit. The courts disagree with you on what is/is not considered obscene & disrespectful.
Read TINKER vs. Des Moines also read (imo, burning the flag is disrespectful, court thinks otherwise) Justice William Brennan, speaking for the majority on flag burning in Texas V. Johnson "If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable..."
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Actually, the only "Stupid" game here is the one your playing. Acting all outraged infering that I am a racist because I think these particular mexicans are a bunch of anti-american idiots who don't even know thier own holidays.
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No, I think you sound racist when you say "go back to where they came from..."

Putting words into my mouth doesn't erase your earlier posts in this thread. Sorry.

The "stupid" comes out of your arguments where you cackle on and on about anyone daring to critisize the chicanos as "racist"
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I was criticizing you as sounding racist. I don't recall bringing up reverse racism. Again putting words in my mouth, etc. etc.

You know when someone's argument has totally tanked, they started making crazy **** up and willy nilly.

Keep goin', Rev... Let's see what else didn't I ever say:

The "Stupid" comes from you declaring the American flag offensive....
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Again, putting crazy-ass words in my mouth, doesn't erase the racist-sounding things you said earlier.

I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it was a heat of the moment type thing. But when you say "go back to where they came from" or things to that effect... it's too similar to things we've all heard the KKK and White Pride groups say.
 
hazlnut said:
No, I think you sound racist when you say "go back to where they came from..."
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Where did I say all mexicans. FAIL



Putting words into my mouth doesn't erase your earlier posts in this thread. Sorry.
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If I actually did do that, it would make your arguments less dense. :shrug:



I was criticizing you as sounding racist. I don't recall bringing up reverse racism. Again putting words in my mouth, etc. etc.
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Having a tantrum indicates loss of all composure. Pull yourself together.



You know when someone's argument has totally tanked, they started making crazy **** up and willy nilly.
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Like calling my point "Racist"? I agree.


You're argument never tanked though, it just never floated the logic sea.


Keep goin', Rev... Let's see what else didn't I ever say:
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This tantrum is tiring.



Again, putting crazy-ass words in my mouth, doesn't erase the racist-sounding things you said earlier.
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I never said anything racists, wipe the tears from your eyes, calm down and read what I actually said... then you can stop embarrassing yourself.



I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe it was a heat of the moment type thing. But when you say "go back to where they came from" or things to that effect... it's too similar to things we've all heard the KKK and White Pride groups say.
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Let me take you on the train to simpletown..... CHOO CHOO..... Those types want all the "mud people" to go back to whence they came... I only suggested the ones offended by the stars and stripes go back, whether they are white, black, brown, or green.... the fail is and always will be. yours.


ALL ABOARD! :pimpdaddy:
 
Redbeard said:
Please point, direct, copy and/or paste where such an statement of exemption was made?
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Why, did you forget what side of the argument you're on?
You said:

Redbeard said:
You do realize the difference between wearing an actual flag as clothing and wearing an t-shirt with a "picture" of the flag.
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I assume your point with this is that because a "t-shirt with a "picture" of the flag" is exempted from Flag Code "while wearing an actual flag as clothing" is not. That is incorrect. Wearing an literal flag and a t-shirt with a picture of a flag are exactly equivalent in the eyes of the Flag Code, and are both violations.

A flag t-shirt is a flag, according to USC Chapter 4 Title 1 Section 3, for purposes of flag code, any image or representation of a flag is a flag[/a] even if it is a no literally a flag in the sense that it is flown from a staff. A flag on a t-shirt isn't a literal flag, but it is a flag according to the definition given in Flag Code. Think about it, a lapel pin isn't a flag, it doesn't fly from a staff and it is made out of metal, it's just an image really. But it is clear governed by Flag Code.


Redbeard said:
You made statement said t-shirt was a flag. Has been pointed out, not to be a flag, but an representative, image, symbol, imprint, copy, etc.
A revision of your statement to “I have a problem with somebody wearing an image of the flag as apparel.” as an alternative. And "It is obscene and disrespectful to the flag, IMO". Trying to circumvent the code to fit your personal views, usually turns out to be a poor fit.
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You point out that I "revised" my statement, but what I was actually doing was making it more clear. It is in fact you who is attempting to circumvent the code by trying to interpret it in such a way that flag t-shirts are not covered by it.

Redbeard said:
The courts disagree with you on what is/is not considered obscene & disrespectful.
Read TINKER vs. Des Moines also read (imo, burning the flag is disrespectful, court thinks otherwise) Justice William Brennan, speaking for the majority on flag burning in Texas V. Johnson "If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable..."
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Ok, I'm starting to see where the misunderstanding is coming from. I know all about Tinker, and the point of that case is that the first amendment prevents the government from You are absolutely right that burning the flag in protest is not a crime, likewise wearing a flag t-shirt is not a crime.

But this is completely irrelevant to a discussion of Flag Code. You see, USC Title 4 Chapter 1 is totally voluntary, it doesn't criminalize anything. But it is the official rule of flag etiquette promulgated the the United States government. If you want to handle the flag in some other way and call it respectful, that's your business and it isn't a crime (it can't be a crime, in fact). But putting the flag on the ground, hanging it upside down and wearing it as a t-shirt are, in fact, disrespectful, according the the United States government.

You say, "the courts disagree with you on what is/is not considered obscene & disrespectful." But indeed, the very quotation from Tinker you employ above acknowledges that "society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." Violations of Flag Code are just such offensive and disagreeable things. They are disrespectful to the flag. You and I don't get to pick and choose what is respectful to the flag, that is up to Congress to decide, and they are unequivocal about it.
 
I assume your point with this is that because a "t-shirt with a "picture" of the flag" is exempted from Flag Code
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How you managed to get exempt out of that is beyond me. One is a flag, the other a representative. Nowhere is it close to even being implied.
Representative of something is just that, a representative. And the code clearly states that fact, representative. You can piece meal, manipulate and juggle all you want to try and make it fit your personal view. Good luck with that.
You and I don't get to pick and choose what is respectful to the flag, that is up to Congress to decide
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Wrong, Congress did make it illegal to burn the flag, but the court over ruled them. As I mentioned, personally, I find it disgraceful & disrespectful.
Anyway, again good luck with the fitting.
 
Redbeard said:
How you managed to get exempt out of that is beyond me. One is a flag, the other a representative. Nowhere is it close to even being implied.
Representative of something is just that, a representative. And the code clearly states that fact, representative. You can piece meal, manipulate and juggle all you want to try and make it fit your personal view. Good luck with that.
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Admittedly, my earlier post was rife with typos, but you're not even making coherent sense in your reply, Redbeard. What on earth are you talking about?

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that it isn't implied anywhere in the Flag Code that an image or representation of a flag is considered to be a flag. But you are, of course, 100% wrong about this. It is not only implied in section 8 d, i and j, which govern flags on apparel, costumes, lapel pins, etc., but it is also stated explicitly in Section 3 that any image of a flag is considered a flag. I am not by any means manipulating the statute, merely reading what it says in plain language. The statute is clear as day, Redbeard, and it is in fact you who is manipulating and juggling to rationalize this idea that images of flags do not fall within the purview of the Flag Code. You're really just talking a bunch of nonsense.

Redbeard said:
Wrong, Congress did make it illegal to burn the flag, but the court over ruled them. As I mentioned, personally, I find it disgraceful & disrespectful.
Anyway, again good luck with the fitting.
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Don't you see that these are two different things? The law that was overturned in Tinker was a law which criminalized the burning of a US flag. The court held that the first amendment prohibited any criminalization of flag burning because flag burning is a type of speech. The court emphatically did not contend that flag burning in protest is somehow respectful (a simple reading of the very quotations you cited from Tinker will tell you that).

On the other hand, the Flag Code is codification of proper Flag handling etiquette. Violations of Flag Code aren't "illegal" in the sense that they are criminal, but violations of Flag Code are officially disrespectful whether you agree with the reasoning or not. There is no room for personal opinion on the matter, at least with respect to flag t-shirts, which clearly fall under the proscription against wearing flags (or images of flags, which are considered to be flags) as apparel. Flag Code is entirely voluntary, and thus is not a violation of the first amendment. Tinker does not apply to Flag Code whatsoever.

So, to sum it up, Tinker preserves the first amendment right to be disrespectful to the flag. Flag Code establishes the manner in which the Flag is to be handled respectfully.

Therefore, flag t-shirts, being a violation of Flag Code, are disrespectful to the flag. Flag t-shirts are just as bad as burning a flag in protest, hanging the flag upside down or using the image of a flag on napkins. None of these things are crimes but all of these things are a violation of flag code.
 
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Guy Incognito said:
Therefore, flag t-shirts, being a violation of Flag Code, are disrespectful to the flag. Flag t-shirts are just as bad as burning a flag in protest, hanging the flag upside down or using the image of a flag on napkins. None of these things are crimes but all of these things are a violation of flag code.
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No because t-shirts with a flag pattern are not flags. And you may hang the flag upside down as a distress symbol. Do you understand any of what you read?
 
Why are we discussing flag code as if it's some kind of law or something?
 
jallman said:
No because t-shirts with a flag pattern are not flags. And you may hang the flag upside down as a distress symbol. Do you understand any of what you read?
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Jallman, it amazes me how you can read the Flag Code closely enough to point that out, yet still be too dense to understand that a "flag pattern" is covered by the Code just as surely as a literal flag.

Yes, you can hang a flag upside down as a signal of extreme distress, but you normally can't hang a flag upside down, which is obviously what I meant (I have read the Code over again about a dozen times in the over the last couple of days trying to explain it to you, so believe me, I am intimately familiar with its nuances...). But if you were being reasonable you would have understood that I was speaking generally about the act of hanging a flag upside down, rather than stubbornly trying to nitpick everything I say as if that will somehow advance your own bizarre interpretation of Flag Code.
While we're on the subject, burning a flag in protest is against flag code, but a flag ought to be burned with honor when it has become unfit for use, which is precisely how all flag t-shirts ought to retire.

Whether it is a flag or a "flag pattern," both are governed equally by flag code. Do you understand anything you read, jallman? You certainly give no evidence of this when you shoot your mouth off.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
No we are doing it to hide from the actual discussion and topic. :thumbs:
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If I'm not discussing the "actual topic" it's because it is such a ridiculous nonissue. As I have said before, I withhold my judgement about the matter without more information. "Of that which we cannot speak, we must remain silent," as the man said. You still haven't answered my earlier question, by the way. Do you actually know anything about this other than what you have read in a news article? Since when are the disciplinary proceedings of high schools relevant to a political debate message board? Frankly, I refuse to indulge in this trumped up Fox news talking point, it is absurd.

The issue regarding the proper interpretation of the Flag Code's prohibition of flag t-shirts, which concerns every citizen's moral and patriotic duty to the Flag of this great nation is of far more pressing importance.
 
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rivrrat said:
Why are we discussing flag code as if it's some kind of law or something?
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Well, this is just a guess, but perhaps that's because it actually is a law? Violating Flag Code may not be a crime, but it is still very much a law promulgated by the US Congress. USC Chapter 4 Title 1 to be precise.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Well, this is just a guess, but perhaps that's because it is a law? Violating Flag Code may not be a crime, but it is still very much a law promulgated by the US Congress. USC Chapter 4 Title 1 to be precise.
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Uh huh :roll:

On the national level the Federal Flag Code1 provides uniform guidelines for the
display of and respect shown to the flag. In addition to the Code, Congress has by
statute designated the national anthem and set out the proper conduct during its
presentation.2 The Code is designed “for the use of such civilian groups or
organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one
or more executive departments” of the federal government.3 Thus, the Flag Code
does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement
provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by
civilians and civilian groups.
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rivrrat said:
Uh huh :roll:
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It may be voluntary but it is still a law! You don't have to like them, you don't even have to follow them, but those are, in fact, the RULES on how to handle a flag. Voluntary laws are STILL LAWS!
 
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