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Thread: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

  1. #121
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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    A great article that explains the EU point of view

    In Your FaceFrench attempts to outlaw the burqa strike a blow for the rights of women.
    By Christopher HitchensPosted Monday, May 10, 2010, at 11:16 AM ET

    French woman wearing a burqa. Click image to expand.Woman wearing a niqab veilThe French legislators who seek to repudiate the wearing of the veil or the burqa—whether the garment covers "only" the face or the entire female body—are often described as seeking to impose a "ban." To the contrary, they are attempting to lift a ban: a ban on the right of women to choose their own dress, a ban on the right of women to disagree with male and clerical authority, and a ban on the right of all citizens to look one another in the face. The proposed law is in the best traditions of the French republic, which declares all citizens equal before the law and—no less important—equal in the face of one another.
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    On the door of my bank in Washington, D.C., is a printed notice politely requesting me to remove any form of facial concealment before I enter the premises. The notice doesn't bore me or weary me by explaining its reasoning: A person barging through those doors with any sort of mask would incur the right and proper presumption of guilt. This presumption should operate in the rest of society. I would indignantly refuse to have any dealings with a nurse or doctor or teacher who hid his or her face, let alone a tax inspector or customs official. Where would we be without sayings like "What have you got to hide?" or "You dare not show your face"?

    Ah, but the particular and special demand to consider the veil and the burqa as an exemption applies only to women. And it also applies only to religious practice (and, unless we foolishly pretend otherwise, only to one religious practice). This at once tells you all you need to know: Society is being asked to abandon an immemorial tradition of equality and openness in order to gratify one faith, one faith that has a very questionable record in respect of females.

    Let me ask a simple question to the pseudoliberals who take a soft line on the veil and the burqa. What about the Ku Klux Klan? Notorious for its hooded style and its reactionary history, this gang is and always was dedicated to upholding Protestant and Anglo-Saxon purity. I do not deny the right of the KKK to take this faith-based view, which is protected by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. I might even go so far as to say that, at a rally protected by police, they could lawfully hide their nasty faces. But I am not going to have a hooded man or woman teach my children, or push their way into the bank ahead of me, or drive my taxi or bus, and there will never be a law that says I have to.

    There are lesser objections to the covered face or the all-covering cloak. The latter has often been used by male criminals—not just religious terrorists but common thugs—to conceal themselves and make an escape. It has also been used to conceal horrible injuries inflicted on abused females. It is incompatible—because of its effect on peripheral vision—with activities such as driving a car or negotiating traffic. This removes it from the sphere of private decision-making and makes it a danger to others, as well as an offense to the ordinary democratic civility that depends on phrases like "Nice to see you."

    It might be objected that in some Muslim societies women are not allowed to drive in the first place. But that would absolutely emphasize my second point. All the above criticisms would be valid if Muslim women were as passionately committed to wearing a burqa as a male Klansman is committed to donning a pointy-headed white shroud. But, in fact, we have no assurance that Muslim women put on the burqa or don the veil as a matter of their own choice. A huge amount of evidence goes the other way. Mothers, wives, and daughters have been threatened with acid in the face, or honor-killing, or vicious beating, if they do not adopt the humiliating outer clothing that is mandated by their menfolk. This is why, in many Muslim societies, such as Tunisia and Turkey, the shrouded look is illegal in government buildings, schools, and universities. Why should Europeans and Americans, seeking perhaps to accommodate Muslim immigrants, adopt the standard only of the most backward and primitive Muslim states? The burqa and the veil, surely, are the most aggressive sign of a refusal to integrate or accommodate. Even in Iran there is only a requirement for the covering of hair, and I defy anybody to find any authority in the Quran for the concealment of the face.

    Not that it would matter in the least if the Quran said otherwise. Religion is the worst possible excuse for any exception to the common law. Mormons may not have polygamous marriage, female circumcision is a federal crime in this country, and in some states Christian Scientists face prosecution if they neglect their children by denying them medical care. Do we dare lecture the French for declaring simply that all citizens and residents, whatever their confessional allegiance, must be able to recognize one another in the clearest sense of that universal term?

    So it's really quite simple. My right to see your face is the beginning of it, as is your right to see mine. Next but not least comes the right of women to show their faces, which easily trumps the right of their male relatives or their male imams to decide otherwise. The law must be decisively on the side of transparency. The French are striking a blow not just for liberty and equality and fraternity, but for sorority too.
    French attempts to outlaw the burqa strike a blow for the rights of women. - By Christopher Hitchens - Slate Magazine

  2. #122
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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    I don't see what the problem is, if muslims want to live in the West, they must adhere to whatever the Western rules/laws are. If they don't like them, they can leave.

    Given how badly christians and other minorities are treated in muslim nations, there really is not going to be much sympathy generated by those who are informed...personally I would deport most of europe's muslims, but I'll accept this for now.

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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by rogerredy View Post
    I don't see what the problem is, if muslims want to live in the West, they must adhere to whatever the Western rules/laws are. If they don't like them, they can leave.

    Given how badly christians and other minorities are treated in muslim nations, there really is not going to be much sympathy generated by those who are informed...personally I would deport most of europe's muslims, but I'll accept this for now.
    I agree. Let them assimilate or boot them out of the country.

  4. #124
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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    But that was not my point: I talked about the Arizona law because you seem to believe that the USA is much more friendly with its immigrants than Europe, which I believe is not true.
    Good god of course it's true bro. The entire world knows this. Europe is famous for its various ethnic cleansings. America is known for accepting waves of immigrants. Now, both of these truths are in the general sense. Immigrants had a hard go at it from time to time in New York City and Mexicans have a hard time crossing the border legally. But the overwhelming wide division between the programs across America for immigrants and those across Europe should speak for itself. There are also the ghettos in Europe where immigrants huddle. The children of Algerians, born in Europe, are not seen as Europeans for an example. And if they are not seen as such, how do they think of themselves? This is going on all over Europe.

    Now, this being said, America and Europe share something in common that sets them apart from the rest of the world. How many immigrant waves has China or Iran or some of these other type countries had to deal with over time? Racism and segregation is a Western thing because nobody wanted to immigrate anywhere else, which forced the west to have to deal with something others did not. For some time in the past, Europe dealt with it eventually with violence. America did not. But I believe this is an unsung tune into the reasons the West (in general) prospers above the rest. Freedom, equality, and racial integration are positive exclamation points in the West because others in Asia, the Middle East, and in Africa simply did not have to jump the hurdles. The Declaration of Independance, the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, and Civil Rights Marches could only come out of the West, which is why we lead the social way for all.

    I firmly believe that culture is fate. I also believe that good culture (and there is such a thing) equals prosperity.


    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Now, about the burqa ban, there is a big disagreement: 98% of our MeP agreed about it (that's extremely rare, we're usually a very divided country) while such a law would never have passed in the USA. That simply show that our value system is a bit different: in the USA your core value seems to be freedom, while in Belgium it seems to be equality.
    I'd agree to this. I also see a difference between European "freedom" and American "liberty" (Our guns laws and such have nmore to do with liberty than freedom). But there's no way that anybody in a Burqa would be elected to do anything in Washington anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    But you should not believe that Europe is a monolith where people are and have always been somewhat oppressed.
    I don't believe anybody in Europe is oppressed. But I do believe that too many believe that they are oppressed. When people believe that they have been cast aside or viewed as outsiders, they tend to see all things as an attack on them. This is especially true for the second generation immigrants. The first generation know first hand what they left behind when they immigrated. The second generation find themselves as jobless as "true" Europeans but without the status of being called a European. They also have the natural desire to defend their parents and the culture they were groomed under. People in misery tend to gravitate together for strength.

    I firmly believe that Europe is full of immigrant time bombs. And the longer the Middle East remains unhealthy the more explosive it will be in Europe. Which, means that America will have to be involved. I'm all about lightening (slightly possible of preventing) what I know is inevitably coming.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-20-10 at 09:28 PM.

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