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Thread: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    "illegal"? Why did you make laws regulating the way people can move through your borders? It's against their basic freedom to move and live where they want! How dare you making laws about that!
    There is a grave difference between regulating immigration and citizenship for the sake of government benefits and taxes....and regulating religious and cultural that hurts nobody. If the woman is being oppressed, then it is up to the woman to accuse and seek help under the law that protects her.

    Your sarcasm fall short because you are grasping at straws to find ways to pull America into your situations. Europeans always do this. You've done three times in just two posts (Old American segregation laws, Arizona attempts to control illegal immigration, and Obama's political burdens).

    In the end, Europe is responsible for Europe. Why is it that Europeans seek America's approvals or mistakes to sooth European behaviors? Aren't you the parents?

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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    There is a grave difference between regulating immigration and citizenship for the sake of government benefits and taxes....and regulating religious and cultural that hurts nobody. If the woman is being oppressed, then it is up to the woman to accuse and seek help under the law that protects her.

    Your sarcasm fall short because you are grasping at straws to find ways to pull America into your situations. Europeans always do this. You've done three times in just two posts (Old American segregation laws, Arizona attempts to control illegal immigration, and Obama's political burdens).

    In the end, Europe is responsible for Europe. Why is it that Europeans seek America's approvals or mistakes to sooth European behaviors? Aren't you the parents?
    More like the old folks that want to come live with their kids.
    There is no such thing as a “Natural Born Dual-Citizen“.

    Originally Posted by PogueMoran
    I didnt have to read the article to tell you that you cant read.

  3. #113
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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    A burqa is everything? This is a loaded question based on an attempt to include extremist activity in minor issues of insignificance. Of course, you shouldn't allow human sacrifice. But this isn't what you are seeking to deny. You may as well deny the wearing of crosses. Some Christiains, who don't even wear crosses around their necks, would find offense.

    It's an unnecessary push.
    So we both agree that we can ban something even if it is religious

    This is a western perspective all over. Americans see it as the same thing. But is it an necessary or unnecessary push? We have a very distinct handful of morons who pass around Rattle Snakes in church as a showing of their faith in God. There is no law against this even though it would be in their best interest. What there is is an ever lasting mockery from the rest of us and a 911 service.
    Well we would react differently over here.



    There's no debate. There never really was. Just a political tool like any other used to damage the other side. But you are attempting to use one American political individual to equate to European population prescription.
    People calling him "socialist" or "marxist" to damage his side, that's very weak debating. But using the argument that he would be "muslim" to put him in a bad light is worse than that, it's quite worrying. It shows that Islam is perceived quite negatively among Americans, especially republicans. I'm not saying that everything is perfect in Europe, we also have extreme right-wing people who use the "islamisation" argument, but they are not mainstream.


    It's laws about religion.
    We consider that it is against fundamentalism, not against Islam itself. As I have said, there is a Muslim woman with a veil that seats at the Parliament in Brussels, and we fund Imams just like we fund catholic priests.
    Last edited by bub; 05-16-10 at 04:32 PM.

  4. #114
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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    What if I was serious?
    I believe you were serious. It's a tactic Europeans always employ to soothe activity in Europe. America could have a weapons mishap on the Mexican border and Europeans would use it to explain away an invasion into a neighboring country between European countries. I shall show you:

    1) Centuries of expulsion, ethnic cleansing and genocide orchestrated by Europeans = a recent Arizona law to come down on "illegal" immigration.

    2) Mandating religious clothing in Europe = American political griping over Obama's status.

    3) Mandating religious clothing in Europe = Old American laws of segregation.


    You did all three in quick fashion. Usually the American pioneering days that saw to the slaughter of Native Americans equals centuries of European slaughter campaigns. Germans are particularly fond of this American period. You took it a step further and attempted to use a bill in Arizona against "illegal" immigration (carefully not using the word illegal) to sooth European tradition of slaughter.

    Unreal. Own your history and stop seeking American imperfections to lift your spirits repetitious behaviors.
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-16-10 at 04:55 PM.

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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    There is a grave difference between regulating immigration and citizenship for the sake of government benefits and taxes....and regulating religious and cultural that hurts nobody. If the woman is being oppressed, then it is up to the woman to accuse and seek help under the law that protects her.
    Well if they do not integrate, it's also a negative thing. It provokes segregation, it creates ghettos, it perpetuates inequalities (since they won't learn the language, won't find a job...) both between themselves and men, but also between immigrants and locals.




    Your sarcasm fall short because you are grasping at straws to find ways to pull America into your situations. Europeans always do this. You've done three times in just two posts (Old American segregation laws, Arizona attempts to control illegal immigration, and Obama's political burdens).

    In the end, Europe is responsible for Europe. Why is it that Europeans seek America's approvals or mistakes to sooth European behaviors? Aren't you the parents?
    Just showing the hypocrisy of blaming someone for doing something while not mentioning that someone else does similar things

  6. #116
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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post



    Glad to see you were sarcastic

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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    So we both agree that we can ban something even if it is religious
    Depends on the activity. But you can't ban religion or an insignifant manner in which people celebrate it. Not all who wear the burqa is forced, but those that are have an option.

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    People calling him "socialist" or "marxist" to damage his side, that's very weak debating. But using the argument that he would be "muslim" to put him in a bad light is worse than that, it's quite worrying. It shows that Islam is perceived quite negatively among Americans, especially republicans. I'm not saying that everything is perfect in Europe, we also have extreme right-wing people who use the "islamisation" argument, but they are not mainstream.
    Islam is perceived quite negatively in America no matter what side of the aisle people are from. There's not many Americans that would deny it. We know who our enemy is just like we knew that the Japanese and the Germans were our enemy no matter how any of them felt towards us.

    But denying them their religious prescriptions (which many Muslims see it as) in America is not an option. There were still Germans and Japanese in America. There were still Russians in America. There are Muslims in America now. Americans have a talent for putting a focused face on our enemies while overlooking their positions in the U.S. Even the American Japanese stay in camps in California during WWII was a temporary fumbling.

    But hey, Obama is called a "marxist" or a "socialist," where Bush was called a "Nazi." Our presidents come and go. And the BS politicial grandstanding to make the other look bad comes and goes with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    We consider that it is against fundamentalism, not against Islam itself. As I have said, there is a Muslim woman with a veil that seats at the Parliament in Brussels, and we fund Imams just like we fund catholic priests.
    She wouldn't have gotten elected in America. Our Muslims tend to be more westernized than Europe's Muslims. And Obama would not have ever walked into the White House with a turban. America has always celebrated a certain freedom from the rest of the world's problems. People don't seek to bring their region's prescriptions across the ocean. They leave those regions for a reason. Europe doesn't have this luxury, which is why I keep warning of the storm.

    But, this is an internal issue. I don't care what Belgium does either way. Just making a point that history shows great distaste amongst people who feel oppressed. There are ramifications to these type things. Should women have to walk behind their husbands? Should they be relegated to the home? Should they be allowed to take multiple breaks throughout the day to pray towards Mecca where others still work? These are all issues to be addressed. They have already been topics of discussion. Eventually they will be sources of discontent.

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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Well if they do not integrate, it's also a negative thing. It provokes segregation, it creates ghettos, it perpetuates inequalities (since they won't learn the language, won't find a job...) both between themselves and men, but also between immigrants and locals.
    Oh I'm not denying that Europe's situation isn't unique. On the contrary, I have stated just that. Europe's historical way of dealing with immigrants has not been healthy to the region (or the world) as a whole. Europe is once again in a situation where it faces tribal issues and the refusal to assimilate by a large number of banded together people. Why does it always come to this? Do they refuse to assimilate or are they even really allowed to assimilate? With this said, this is why I don't understand how easily your region pretends that an unhealthy Middle East is something to turn our backs on.

    India is the model. For a time, the brightest left India and ventured into Europe for opportunity and prosperity. This left India a mess and eventually even the worst began to immigrate. Such things burden prosperous nations and destroy others. The fix was to begin programs like America did and boost India into the future. Today, India is on the rise and their immigration ceased to be a problem for others. An unhealthy Middle East will encourage immigration (good and bad) into the West. The bad will (and do) simply bring their bad habits with them. This will and does effect Europe the greatest.


    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    Just showing the hypocrisy of blaming someone for doing something while not mentioning that someone else does similar things
    There is no hypocrasy. I don't blame you for anything. But "similar" is hardly exactly. Repetitious behaviors in Europe will never be excused because of isolated mistakes in America, which are never to be repeated. America's claim to genocidal fame was the Native American over the span of decades. Can Europe claim to have learned a lesson over its continued genocidal fame? America's claim to racial awkwardness was segregation laws. Can Europe claim that this is all that was employed over the continued practice of ethnic cleansing? America's claim to religious persecution was the very few Salem Witch Trials. Can Europes claim such a small event?

    But these things are used every time Europeans feel the need to explain away behavior or to legitimize further ones. This Arizona Bill will be forever in the hearts of Europeans who need to excuse whatever laws come against Muslims hence forth.

    Contrary to European belief, Americans learn from history and our own mistakes. We are not repeat offenders. Europe is and it's our mistakes that you use to encourage further mistakes and behaviors. Notice how this Arizona Bill hasn't been argued positively because of European behaviors? Arizona wants the Bill because it is tired of dealing with the burden of illegal immigration. Europeans want certain social laws against Muslims because of America's Arizona Bill makes it right? Why do you people always do this?
    Last edited by MSgt; 05-16-10 at 05:20 PM.

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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    There is no hypocrasy.
    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Repetitious behaviors in Europe will never be excused because of isolated mistakes in America, which are never to be repeated.

    (...)

    We are not repeat offenders. Europe is
    .........................

  10. #120
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    Re: Arab group threatens Belgium with terror attacks

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Oh I'm not denying that Europe's situation isn't unique. On the contrary, I have stated just that. Europe's historical way of dealing with immigrants has not been healthy to the region (or the world) as a whole. Europe is once again in a situation where it faces tribal issues and the refusal to assimilate by a large number of banded together people. Why does it always come to this? Do they refuse to assimilate or are they even really allowed to assimilate? With this said, this is why I don't understand how easily your region pretends that an unhealthy Middle East is something to turn our backs on.

    India is the model. For a time, the brightest left India and ventured into Europe for opportunity and prosperity. This left India a mess and eventually even the worst began to immigrate. Such things burden prosperous nations and destroy others. The fix was to begin programs like America did and boost India into the future. Today, India is on the rise and their immigration ceased to be a problem for others. An unhealthy Middle East will encourage immigration (good and bad) into the West. The bad will (and do) simply bring their bad habits with them. This will and does effect Europe the greatest.




    There is no hypocrasy. I don't blame you for anything. But "similar" is hardly exactly. Repetitious behaviors in Europe will never be excused because of isolated mistakes in America, which are never to be repeated. America's claim to genocidal fame was the Native American over the span of decades. Can Europe claim to have learned a lesson over its continued genocidal fame? America's claim to racial awkwardness was segregation laws. Can Europe claim that this is all that was employed over the continued practice of ethnic cleansing? America's claim to religious persecution was the very few Salem Witch Trials. Can Europes claim such a small event?

    But these things are used every time Europeans feel the need to explain away behavior or to legitimize further ones. This Arizona Bill will be forever in the hearts of Europeans who need to excuse whatever laws come against Muslims hence forth.

    Contrary to European belief, Americans learn from history and our own mistakes. We are not repeat offenders. Europe is and it's our mistakes that you use to encourage further mistakes and behaviors. Notice how this Arizona Bill hasn't been argued positively because of European behaviors? Arizona wants the Bill because it is tired of dealing with the burden of illegal immigration. Europeans want certain social laws against Muslims because of America's Arizona Bill makes it right? Why do you people always do this?
    Well, seriously, I understand your point. It's not because the USA does something (like the Arizona law) that it excuses what we do in Europe.

    But that was not my point: I talked about the Arizona law because you seem to believe that the USA is much more friendly with its immigrants than Europe, which I believe is not true. That's also the reason why I talked about the rumours about Obama being Muslim. They do not excuse anything that happen in Europe, but they show that the USA is not always as friendly as you say with the other cultures.

    Now, about the burqa ban, there is a big disagreement: 98% of our MeP agreed about it (that's extremely rare, we're usually a very divided country) while such a law would never have passed in the USA. That simply show that our value system is a bit different: in the USA your core value seems to be freedom, while in Belgium it seems to be equality.

    This difference can be seen in many other topics, look at the labor market for example: in the USA there are very poor people and extremely rich people, while in Belgium we don't like a too big "gap" between rich and poors: our poors are less poor than yours thanks to our welfare system, and our rich are also less rich than yours because there are more taxes to fund the system.

    But you should not believe that Europe is a monolith where people are and have always been somewhat oppressed. There are huge differences between countries and between centuries. During the religious wars for example, Belgium was re-conquered by the Spanish catholics and we were a very conservative land, while all the protestants fled to the Netherlands, which were extremely tolerant. And on the contrary, during the XXth century, Belgium was probably one of the most liberal (in the meaning of tolerant) country in the world, Karl Marx fled here and wrote his most famous books in Brussels, and so did many French writers. You can't talk about "Europe" as a whole, there is/was a big diversity.
    Last edited by bub; 05-18-10 at 06:23 AM.

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