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Thread: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

  1. #151
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    Re: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Does it matter? No. All abortions, viable fetus or not, should be illegal because it's murder.
    How can you murder something that is not alive (viable outside the womb) or a human being (1st and 2nd terms).

    3rd term is IMO the taking of a human life, but the state laws are reasonable with regard to medical issues. I'm sure you've got your far-rightie talking points all set for how bad the state laws are...but save them for someone who hasn't already heard them and debunked them a thousand times...

    Many of these places murder the children that survive a botched abortion. They deny them medical care and stuff them in a room to die, or they throw them away while they are still living. Such barbaric monsters.
    Now you're just running off on a far-rightie tangent with some extreme antidotal evidence. Not very convincing to anyone who knows what you're doing...

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    Re: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    All I'm doing is looking at the evidence. The founder was racist, the organization accepts donations from racists, and they chose to put their clinics in black neighborhoods. One could say they go out of their way to ensure and promote black abortions. Remember, roughly 60% of abortions are done by white women (still the majority) yet the chose to locate in minority neighborhoods. Facts and video proof show that they are racist, plus they cover up childhood abortions and sexual crimes. It's like the acorn of the abortion world.
    Founder's views are irrelevant.

    They should accept donations from anyone who will donate. Racist or not. Racist's money spends just as good as non-racists.

    They put clinics in neighborhoods that need them, which are poorer neighborhoods, which are often minority neighborhoods.

    How can they "go out of their way" to ensure and promote abortions for black women? Tell me how they market this service to black women. Show me their racist marketing campaign. Hell, show me ANY abortion marketing campaign. I'll just wait over there while you spin your wheels.

  3. #153
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    Re: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Well...The far-righties in the OK Coral think that the image of a cell mass in in your uterus will make you reconsider...

    The turning the monitor toward the women and forcing them to watch reminds me of Clockwork Orange...

    Why don't they just play baby music in the background, and force the patient to take the aborted fetus home in a bottle and carrying it around for a week.
    No ****. LOL

    When they showed me my ultrasound, I was all like, "Holy ****!! You mean there's a ****ing fetus in there? HOW THE **** DID THAT GET THERE??!! I had no idea THAT was in there!!!"



  4. #154
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    Re: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Yes, because making a woman see the child she is killing is so... big gov't. It's so WRONG! Better to just let her think she's killing a mass of her own cells she doesn't want to deal with.

    The ultra-sound is done vaginally instead of over the abdomen. If you are against the invasion of government in our lives, how can you be for this law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    His point was that Republicans are exactly the same. Conservatives LOVE big government. They just oppose it when it is something they don't agree with.

    The only differences between Liberals and Conservatives are what they want government to do, what they want government to stay out of, and the fact that Conservatives hypocritically CLAIM to be for small government.
    And specifically, Republicans want only the kind of government that pokes their noses in our bedrooms and in a woman's uterus.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    It was done in the name of ideology though. The court has decided to try and legislate and prevent a completely legal legislation from passing because it may change a woman's mind before she has an abortion. What about health reasons? Shouldn't the abortion "doctor" know the insides via ultrasound before he preforms his execution? One can argue that there are health reasons for allowing this and forcing it.

    Abortion is a legal procedure. Period. So the reason for the Oklahoma law:

    It was done in the name of ideology. The legislature has decided to try and legislate and prevent a completely legal procedure because they don't agree with the law.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat View Post
    That is Planned Parenthood's #1 money maker. Without abortions, they would go belly up.

    Also, it was founded upon eugenics in the 1st place, which by and large, is a pretty nasty business. Just ask the African American population, they are usually the ones who get the easiest acces to abortion mills, as they set up shop in those type of areas.
    Two other posters have addressed this. If you have links to the contrary, please post them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Well...The far-righties in the OK Coral think that the image of a cell mass in in your uterus will make you reconsider...

    The turning the monitor toward the women and forcing them to watch reminds me of Clockwork Orange...


    Why don't they just play baby music in the background, and force the patient to take the aborted fetus home in a bottle and carrying it around for a week.
    While their eyes are forced open with those clamps.



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  5. #155
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    Re: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Yes it was, you have absolutely zero evidence that it wasn't. My opinion is that she legislated from the bench according to her ideology. I bet there is a 99% chance that she is a pro-choice woman.

    Yes it has (again, your word verses mine)


    She has tried to delay the legislative process. She may allow for arguments but I doubt she will be objective and actually let this completely legal law pass.
    So, you're against the healthcare bill requiring people to get health insurance; but you're for a law forcing a woman to undertake a medical procedure?

    Just making sure I understand your status here on what the government can force a person to do.

  6. #156
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    Re: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat View Post
    Hat, you may want to tell me who you’re trying to debate against because you quoted me but what you posted didn’t have anything to do with countering what I said. That stated, since you quoted me I’m going to have to assume this was supposed to “Counter” my argument so let me tell you why it doesn't work as a rebuttal.

    My argument was that right now, in regards to the topic of this thread and rather Oklahoma’s law should be overturned or not, whether or not YOU PERSONALLY think a fetus is a baby from the moment of conception is irrelevant. It is irrelevant because the current standard in this country, that is essentially law, is that a fetus is NOT a alive or “a child” until the 3rd trimester. Regardless of what your beliefs are that’s what the actual legal standard is, and thus laws must go off of what the legal standard is not your personal belief.

    Posting me a link showing that thirty-eight states have laws on the books regarding killing the fetus while attacking a pregnant woman in no way, shape, or form changes the fact that under the law it’s still not considered a living “child” yet until the 3rd trimester. Showing that a single state has made abortions illegal earlier means absolutely zero as state legal standards do not overrule federal. Not to mention the quoted law is under a month old so we’ve yet to see how it stands up in appeals for its constitutionality, of which I fear is not likely to fair well.

    Fact is, when it comes to the fetus, abortion, and federal legal statutes, it is not able to be claimed to be “alive” until that 3rd trimester and as such making laws based off the notion that it is simply because you “believe” it doesn’t make the laws, well, legal.

    I can't even understand the comparison to the gun thingy. The 2 issues, aren't comparable.
    Yes, they are. In both cases its someone making a law that is contrary to the stated legal standard in place and arguing that it’s a valid law because it fits your PERSONAL belief.

    Someone simply deciding “Nope, the Supreme Court is wrong, the 2nd amendment is not an individual right, it deals with militia’s, so I can ban individuals guns” is absolutely no different than a notion of “Nope, the Supreme Court is wrong, the fetus is definitely a living child prior to the 3rd trimester so I can make laws based on that belief”. You’re ignoring legal standard to make law contrary to what’s allowable under precedent based on nothing but your personal belief and disagreement with the court. That is the exact same thing.

    I do know this. As medical technology has gotten better, the ability to take a baby from the womb and keep it alive is getting better at younger and younger ages during pregnancy.
    Irrelevant to this case since:

    1) In regards to the life of the fetus it has to follow federal statutes rather you like it or not
    2) Doesn’t even touch on the fact that it’s the government forcing a private citizen to undergo a medical procedure

    With that advancement in medical technology, laws are going to be effected, as they already have. As this medical technology, to save lives, gets even better, babies will be kept alive at even earlier and earlier times during pregnancy until babies aren't even carried within the womb.
    And hey, I would absolutely love to get to the point where we could have a relatively safe surgery to remove the fetus and be able to do as you say. Though that would create an entire new host of issues as well with orphaned kids. There’s no perfect solution sadly.

    At that point in medical advancement, what will the laws be?
    Who knows, but that has absolutely zero baring on what the laws ARE now.

    This is the future of medical technology folks. This is the route it is taking. Laws are going to change with it, and along with that comes a change in mindset on abortion and a whole host of other life issues b/c at that point, abortion becomes null and avoid does it not?
    First, thank you for this random tangent. It is obvious you’re running away from my original point because you have no real counter for it so you’re just spouting on about the “future” which really has no baring to what I said.

    Second, let me play devil’s advocate for a moment. No, abortion doesn’t become null and void. The other side is always going to be able to argue something. For instance, even if said child is “alive” one could argue that “murder” is allowable in cases of self defense and that having an unwanted entity within one’s body that has adverse health and economic effects on your is a legitimate reason for “self defense” in the termination of it. The one way you could avoid this argument would be if the magical imaginary procedure of the future you speak of is able to extract the fetus with an equal or less amount of danger to the mother as an abortion is. If you can do that, then sure…you could have an argument against it that “the self defense” then would be removal rather than abortion since there’s no safety issue. However if it isn’t safer then again you have an issue where you’re telling her you can defend yourself but in a more dangerous manner, and that’s not going to fly well or stop the fighting.

    And, sadly, again, I fear no matter what technology we have there’s never going to be a perfect answer. There’s always going to be children that are unwanted that are conceived and rather their aborted or born to an orphaned life, there’s no real “good” answer sadly.

    And at that point what will the pro-death crowds chant be to abort babies then, when mothers don't even carry their young in the womb?
    Doesn’t matter, we’re all blowing up and the worlds being destroyed in 2012 or will all be hooked up into machines to act as batteries for Robots.

    What? I thought we were talking about Science Fiction from far in the future as if its fact and definitely going to happen.

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    Re: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

    If the women have to watch the belly scan, they should also have to watch a film of a colicky, teething infant on a bad night. With the volume cranked.
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  8. #158
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    Re: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Hat, you may want to tell me who you’re trying to debate against because you quoted me but what you posted didn’t have anything to do with countering what I said. That stated, since you quoted me I’m going to have to assume this was supposed to “Counter” my argument so let me tell you why it doesn't work as a rebuttal.

    My argument was that right now, in regards to the topic of this thread and rather Oklahoma’s law should be overturned or not, whether or not YOU PERSONALLY think a fetus is a baby from the moment of conception is irrelevant. It is irrelevant because the current standard in this country, that is essentially law, is that a fetus is NOT a alive or “a child” until the 3rd trimester. Regardless of what your beliefs are that’s what the actual legal standard is, and thus laws must go off of what the legal standard is not your personal belief.
    You obviously didn't read my link or the quote I provided. 38 different states, now have homicide laws when someone kills a pregnant woman. Doesnn't matter if they are in their 3rd trimester or not. So again, yes, your wrong. That was my point, just trying to get the facts out there. Not really caring to argue with you, but just wanting to make sure the facts on that were out there.

    Point being, if you can be charged for the homicide of a baby in the womb, then obviously the baby in the womb counts as a "child" no?

    I know what the laws are man. Which as an intelligent human being, I don't try hiding behind them when it is convenient to do so. I realize, that as time moves forward, laws are going to change. Such as the homicide laws concerning babies in the womb. When Roe v Wade passed, was that an issue then? Why not? More then likely b/c the technology wasn't detailed enough yet to show what a baby in the womb really is, along with the science that has come about since then too.

    I am sorry, but neither medical nor science is on the side of the pro-death crowd. And as far as my "opinion" on when a baby is a baby, is not merely my "opinion" it is based on the facts, which many here in this thread and elsewhere willingly ignore b/c they simply cant handle the fact that man can't change the way Mother Nature conceives and grows organisms. Man fears what he can't control. This is why the pro-death crowd and the feminist movement want the issue positioned in such a way that we focus strictly on the woman's right to choose to kill her baby or not b/c that is the 1 thing in the entire life cycle process they CAN control.

    That arguement is slowly being eroded and the RIGHT arguement is starting to be made. That which deals with the baby and the mother combined, as 2 unique and independent individuals. Technology, science, and understanding are bringing it to this phase. Which is a good thing for both mom and baby. Of course, the feminist won't see it this way, as they are so wrapped up in themselves.

    Here is another thing nobody has cared to state, what mother getting an ultrasound, doesn't look at the screen anyways? What mother doesn't want to see her baby?
    Last edited by TheHat; 05-06-10 at 12:15 PM.

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    Re: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat View Post
    I am sorry, but neither medical nor science is on the side of the pro-death crowd.
    Sorry, but science is squarely on the pro-choice side at this time. If and when science can determine that a fetus has a fully functioning, thinking, sentient brain and cerebral cortex at conception, then you might be onto something.

    But thus far, science has shown otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheHat View Post
    Here is another thing nobody has cared to state, what mother getting an ultrasound, doesn't look at the screen anyways? What mother doesn't want to see her baby?
    A mother who doesn't want it, despises its invasion, resents its unwanted presence, and wants it removed from her body. Probably those mothers.
    Last edited by rivrrat; 05-06-10 at 12:20 PM.

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    Re: Judge stops Oklahoma abortion law

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Yes, it has changed, and you have no evidence to say otherwise.
    Planned Parenthood lies to women who come into their clinics. There are videos out there showing doctors and medical staff blatantly lying to women about the heartbeat of a baby not even being possibly till week 19. Plenty of other lies as well. Medical professionals, blatantly lying to continue their death squads. All you got to do is google those terms.

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